Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Fuck this country.

EDIT: The guy was facing 13 felony counts for downloading academic articles.



Understandable emotion, but the country did not kill him. He did that.

You can disagree with the laws of the land, protest them, even violate them in protest assuming you are willing to pay the consequences.

You can blame the country, its politicians, or its voters for having bad laws. You can't blame those entities for this suicide. That was his choice, and it's unfortunate he will not be around to make his case.


We have no problem directing our attention at bullying when we consider elevated teenage suicide statistics, but if those bullies happen to be in government they are suddenly off limits and deserve no blame?


Man, I don't want to make this point here, but comparing this to bullying is ridiculous.

There's a difference between a child who is victimized while growing socially and emotionally and an adult man who allegedly broke the law knowingly.


You're right, this isn't really comparable to bullying, the imbalance of power is much more extreme. It is comparable to an adult beating a child for using a profane word. A completely mindbogglingly disproportionate response; convicted rapists get less time on average than what he was looking at.

JSTOR didn't want him pursued like he was, but the justice department was trying to nail him to the wall anyway. They wanted blood, and unfortunately they got it.


I agree with you. The parallel to bullying is a good fit and the only reason it is not _really_ comparable is because of the imbalance of power. I would not be surprised to find myself and most others taking the same sort of action in a similar, unjust, situation. Would you rather die today or suffer more than you lived so far in prison for something like that ? Isn't just a matter of the law being unjust, I think this is pure evil and wrong interpretation of a wrong law. The law needs changing and the people pursing this case need changing too.


This is so absurd. While you may disagree with the punishment sought and the law, the government is enforcing the law, as written at the time the crime was committed.

They guy actively broke many laws over a long period of time. The government is neither acting without reason nor intimidating someone for lawful behavior.

Bullies don't enforce proscribed consequences based on written law. Bullies don't use courts with impartial judges, juries, and defense advocacy. Comparing this to bullying is insulting to anyone actually bullied.

Comparing this to beating a child? Seriously?


> They guy actively broke many laws over a long period of time. The government is neither acting without reason nor intimidating someone for lawful behavior.

I am arguing a massively disproportionate response occurred. Not that he was innocent, or that he deserved no punishment at all.

> Comparing this to beating a child? Seriously?

Decades of prison and 13 felony charges were in play. A man is dead. All for what? A little trespassing, a fake email, and a bunch of downloads? It is going to take more than your mock shock to convince me the comparison is anything other than generous. I am holding back here.


Exactly, I am right there with you.

I don't understand the people saying the DOJ was just doing their jobs either. Are none of the people involved in that process given any sort of power of discretion at all? Any person in this case who was in a position to use some discretion but chose not to should be doing some serious reflection and consideration right now.


Of course they have that discretion -- prosecutors decline cases or seek reduced sentences all the time. Given the overbearing nature of our legal system, it would be impractical to do otherwise. This was just pointlessly maximalist DOJ behavior. On the other hand, shame on us for allowing these laws to exist at all, and creating opportunities for selective enforcement and massively unreasonable sentences.

I'd also like to add here that while maybe the DOJ had no way to know that Aaron would kill himself, their general pattern of ruining people's lives over minor offenses will, it seems obvious to me, result in some number of suicides. Heat up a pot of water and some percentage of the molecules evaporate. So while we can't hold the DOJ responsible for Aaron's actions, we can certainly hold them accountable for the aggregate misery they've created for so many people. And we should.


And apparently the persecutor knew about the suicide risk: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/01/14/us-reddit...


Only in that it makes finger pointers feel better while getting their slab of meat. The difference between the two is arbitrary and simply made up.


Yeah, Turing was a total loser, right?


>Understandable emotion, but the country did not kill him. He did that.

This idea is quite an easy cop out, isn't it?


Rest in Peace Aaron


Why are you assuming he did it because of his legal problems?


A Federal charge is a terrible thing, even before the gavel falls.

You'll note that he was indicted in June 2011, more than a year and a half ago. Throughout this time he must have been under tremendous stress: not knowing whether he'd be spending the next few decades behind bars, and not even knowing when he would find this information out. Months drag on into years and nothing seems to get any better. Your life is on hold until someone else decides what your life will be looking like.

This sort of stress tends to eat away at your insides. You can't make long-term plans of any kind; meet a nice person at the bar and you're reminded that you can't start anything serious since you might be going away for a long time. A thousand tiny reminders every day that you are already a prisoner and will be for an indefinite period while the lawyers are lawyering. All the defendant has is time to think about what prison would be like, how the course of their life is not in their hands. It is a feeling of abject powerlessness.

It's not unfathomable that a person in this situation might look at suicide as the only way to regain control of their life, even if it means ending it prematurely.

Suicide for a defendant can, therefore, seem almost enticing. A siren who sings of a quick and easy escape from seemingly insurmountable troubles. I do not know why he did it, but I have been where he might have gone to in his mind. It is a dark place, and much evil can be wrought there.


Because he was a brilliant and loved computer programmer who was facing 35 years in prison. Can you imagine the US Attorneys office treating you in the same manner they treat rapists because you wrote a downloader script? I'd say it's a very reasonable assumption.

RIP Aaron


Can you imagine the US Attorneys office treating you in the same manner they treat rapists because you wrote a downloader script?

Minor nitpick: The "justice" system treats rapists far better. Typical sentencing for rapists is 112 months, of which the typical rapist will serve half, from a system( rape is usually a state-level crime )with conviction rates hovering around 65%. Aaron was facing 3-4 times that, in a system( the federal courts )with a conviction rate over 90%.


Nobody sane would kill himself - it's against the nature of all beings. Besides it's the easy way out.


Someone who could have contributed very positively to the society just killed himself. We can't reverse that, the best we can do now is to learn from this incidence and try to minimize it in the future. Explaining it away in the name of insanity will not help.


Even if you're right, there are many things that can turn the sanest of people "insane" (or at least depressed). See post traumatic stress disorder or postpartum depression for starters.

I imagine if I were suddenly facing a potential 35 years in prison, I'd be at a pretty high risk of becoming depressed.


What's your fucking point?


You pull the trigger and all your problems disappear, just like that. But what about your family, friends? They are devastated for the rest of their lives.


I've always found that position extremely selfish. If it wasn't for families and friends being devastated killing yourself would probably not seem like a big deal to many. The fact that it affects the ones you love so much is the very reason for why many that contemplates suicide goes through unimaginable suffering just to save it from others - it is a huge sacrifice, one that a typical person would never, ever, in their entire life even come close to experiencing. And if it just doesn't work out people have the stomach to call it selfish.

Someone described the process in which a depressed person takes his/her life with a person standing in the window of a burning building choosing between burning to death and jumping to death. It can basically be the very same thing.

And to a certain degree, jumping just makes your problems disappear - just like that. But saying that the person jumping is selfish because he/she didn't contemplate the consequences? Do you honestly believe that killing yourself is something that people take lightly? That it didn't occur to them that they would be missed? Think. That point of view makes me sick and expressing it makes you extremely selfish in my eyes.


Devastation was already running rampant in this situation.


As a stranger who's never known Aaron and who's only just read about what he's done in this world, I can say I'm somewhat devastated as well.

You're blaming Aaron for taking the supposedly cowardly approach and hurting his friends and family in the process, but what about the people who put him in this position? Are they beyond reproach? What about the people who affected those people? Clearly something fucked up along the way because I don't think Aaron deserved to be in a position where he had to do this because he downloaded bytes from a website.


Yeah because it's saner to spend 35 years in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.


If you break a law you have to pay for this. Don't you have lawyers there to protect the innocent?


Holy crap, stop being such an asshole. On the off chance you're "just playing the devil's advocate": it's time to quit, now. You can't possibly believe that Aaron deserved in any way what was coming to him. It also stretches the imagination that you actually think lawyers are in any way protecting the innocent. Your opinion on depression is likewise both immature and disgusting in its callousness. You should really be challenged for these beliefs if they are indeed your own.


As a society we do agree to follow the law and punish those who break them. But remember that the law of the land is not some God given set of laws. Several people broke segregation laws during the civil rights movement and in my view they should not have paid up (I think you may also agree with this). Turing paid up because he broke the law but now I guess there is almost unanimous consent that him paying up was not the right outcome. So paying up for breaking the law is not as black and white as it sometimes seems. Lets reserve our judgements for some time.

Edit : Also as Udo points out lets stop this line of argument for a bit. Some members of the community either knew Aaron or were affected by his work, lets not subject them to this argument right now.


Even if you're innocent, and even if you ultimately win, a federal prosecution can utterly wreck your life.

I don't think anyone disputes that Aaron was probably not in the best of mental health to be facing this kind of thing in the first place, but even for a paragon of stability, a multi-year witchhunt and prosecution by the feds will push you to the limit. I know of a few people who have been in the eye AUSA doom (and some ongoing, like Harborside Health Center), and especially for an individual defendant vs. a group, it's very hard.


Context?


He was being charged with the felony of downloading/distributing research done using public funding so that it could be made freely available to the taxpayers who funded it. JSTOR had no interest in prosecuting him, but the US Attorney's Office decided to go ahead anyway.


This would be a perfect opportunity for a White House pardon.


Those are only available to the guilty.


Is that the case in the US? My impression is that Ford gave Nixon a blanket pardon even though Nixon had not (yet, probably) been found guilty of anything.



A promise of a pardon would have done just as well, especially for federal prosecutors. The DOJ isn't going to make a big case out something their boss has promised to throw out. That said, the president being superinvolved in an ongoing case like that would be very strange.


I assume you mean convicted, but Ford gave Nixon one.


Actually I do mean guilty, as I was under the impression that you have to accept your guilt before you could get a pardon.


"Everything bad that happens is because this country sucks, everything good that happens is because our community is awesome".





Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: