There's algae in the tube feeding the ice machine in my company's break room, multiple wet ceiling tiles all year long, signs telling us to literally not wipe our feces on the walls in the bathroom, shared desks with other shifts, a constant smell of mold and I make 35k a year, no chance of promotion at all without taking on tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get a 4-year degree in literally anything, at a rabidly anti-union company, in a state where an employee can basically fire you for no reason at all.
Man, I wish I had the problems of these Goooglers.
Sure, sexism and racial discrimination is bad bad bad, but this happens at the vast majority of employers. If I and/or my co-workers tried to do one of these walkouts, security would be there when we came back to take our badges and tell us to leave or the police would be called.
I find it extremely difficult to feel any sympathy for these folks because they have it much better than I do, and extremely better than millions of people in the United States and billions of people worldwide.
A cursory Google search (ha, maybe I should have used Bing) on-site physicians, paid PATERNITY leave, death benefits, leave of absence to pursue education, having Google on your CV probably helps tremendously if you try and get a job somewhere else, Google allows employees to spend 20% of their time pursuing a project that they are passionate about, apparently Googlers can bring their pets to work, have access to all sorts of other benefits like shuttles/food/recreation that simply do not exist for the vast majority of people in the world.
The lifter in my work chair has been broken for years now, it has recently started tilting to the left as well, it is 12 years old. Our windows 10 upgrade removed a functional calculator, something I use every few minutes, requiring me to either buy a calculator or use Google for work-related maths. There are 3 microwaves and 2 small refrigerators for 100~ employees. In the winter the upper 60's are not uncommon in the office with the upper 70's and lower 80's not uncommon in the summer with business casual dress mandatory. Need to go to the doctor, be prepared to at least take a half day which you have to request well in advance most of the time with about a month and a half blacked out every year where no one can take time off. Need a personal day, well you better fake sick and call in and if you call in 2-3x in a 6 month period you're now on their radar and risking verbal warning territory.
Your entire premise is fallacious. It's responding to someone complaining about an injustice by saying there are starving children in Africa. Your situation sounds awful and if you are that miserable I would be happy to help with anyone that I know that has open positions, depending on your concentration. That being said, saying things like: "Sure, sexism and racial discrimination is bad bad bad, but this happens at the vast majority of employers." is not acceptable in my opinion. It's defeatist and dismissive. No one should just accept an injustice because it happens everywhere. That's simply not how civilization should work.
The main point of this meandering article that I'm gathering, and that's being kind since it's basically a 'book' about notable events at Google over the past few years, is the erosion of communication and transparency between the upper echelons of Google and the lower level employees. The amount of doxxing in particular really scared me.
I agree with you that dismissing sexism and racial discrimination on the grounds that it happens most places is unacceptable.
And I agree that there is a problem there, we should talk about it, doxxing is awful, and injustice needs to be tackled at every level.
However, I think your response is partly fallacious, in that the GP is not comparing a local situation to far away starving children in Africa.
Rather, in that analogy, they _are_ one of the starving children, like in Africa, and to rub it in it's in the same neighbourhood. Both make quite a different perspective, I think.
I think the GP's point was more that they struggle to feel sympathy for the Googlers, when they themselves are in a much worse situation, which they regard as just realistic life in their world for ordinary people.
I think they wanted to paint a picture for the rest of us of what "real life" is like for a lot of people in exactly the same country, lest we forget, and start to think it's generally good except at Google.
I think the premise has merit. I work at a Big4 with a, as of yesterday, larger market cap than Google and our company culture isn't dysfunctional as this article would suggest.
The Schmidt idea that they have to keep their "divas" like Andy Rubin seems not to be yielding results.
Anthony Bourdain committed suicide despite a wildly financially successful and engaging life. I hear constant anecdotes about how messed up (drug use, suicide, etc) the children of rich people are.
At the end of the day we're all going up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and as you get closer to the top you start freaking out about existential stuff the same way people working the bottom freak out about physical necessities. If you started out fairly close to the top (i.e. born to the upper middle-class, like many Googlers) then that existential stuff is likely the only type of challenge that's ever consistently existed in your life, which gives it even more weight. So you focus on it and don't appreciate the benefits of being a Googler. That's just expected after a while.
It's not all decadence though, in my experience a lot of people who had to rise from humbler origins are actually held back by their relative conservatism; they stop improving at a certain point because they don't prioritize the existential stuff as much. I work with some engineers hailing from blue-collar backgrounds who give me weird looks when I tell them about my side projects, they're shocked I mess around with tech outside of work. Why would I want to do work when I don't have to? How is it fun? It's like I told them I was mining coal in my backyard. As a result I sometimes know things about their work that, despite their fundamental competence, they never learned.
Plus, we need people to agonize about the existential stuff (although perhaps in a more coherent manner than this article). If everyone was satisfied with basic material needs things like sexism and racial discrimination would never get addressed (What do you care you didn't get that job you wanted? You still have a roof over your head and food in your stomach!)
Misery knows no social class, and everything's a trade-off.
If it makes you feel any better, I work at Google, but have found toilets with pee all over the floor and toilet seat and much worse I'd rather not talk about. :-)
Googlers are the first to admit we're spoiled. _Most_ of us are conscious of our privileges compared to other workers.
But as others have pointed out that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to issues of sexism and lack of diversity, attitudes towards minorities, etc. which are issues more _parallel_ to the privileges you're describing than in contradiction to it.
I think the issue is how strongly people are complaining.
For example.
I think we can all agree that sexism is bad, and that in a perfect world your coworker would not be looking at you with "hungry eyes". But the world isn't perfect, and you have a coworker who is attracted to you. Maybe even a bit too flirty.
But then people treat this as if the coworker is a horrible human being rather than maybe just an oblivious or socially awkward person who isn't really trying to cause any sort of harm. And this behavior then gets equated with sexual assault, "violence", and so forth.
The perspective is all skewed. It's not nearly as large of a problem as they're making it out to be. There was a story a while back about a woman who realized her drink (coffee I think) would start tasting strange in the middle of the day so she took it to a lab and had them analyze it. It turns out one of her male coworkers had been ejaculating into it when she walked away. THAT is horrific. Your male coworker being a bit flirty is not nearly on the same level, but people treat it as if it is. And that's where the problems arise.
And you just watch, atleast one person is going to respond to me affronted and imply that I must be arguing that it's ok for unwanted attention, or that I believe it can't cross unacceptable lines. It absolutely can, that's not the point.
Actually that makes me feel worse. I've never fully understood that sort of bathroom etiquette, even when it happens in a public restroom at a public park (which is common). But, to hear it happens within Google makes me lose a little bit of hope that we will ever achieve a civil and courteous society.
Disclosure: I work at Google, and in absolutely no way do I speak for anyone other than myself.
Your situation is awful. In fact, it's so bad that no one should ever have to be in it, and you're absolutely right that ours is eons better.
That doesn't mean this is the way things must be.
All of those benefits you listed—they are things that any decent society would provide. The fact that Google choosing to be decent is not only so rare, but also contempt-inducing in people who are ground down by other companies is a staggering win for every other company that doesn't want to offer good benefits.
The fact that instead of saying "hey, we expect to be treated as well as Google treats its employees, and we're willing to pass laws to that effect if need be", people are saying "man, look at those coddled Googlers" while aware of their own untenable positions—that's a triumph of the soul sucking machinery of modern employment.
I'm not suggesting action. I'm not even asking you to feel sorry for us—you're right, in most cases, there's nothing to feel sorry for, though depending on your sympathies, a kind thought towards those who receive torrents of abuse would be…well, kind.
I would ask that you imagine yourself in our shoes and wonder: is working at Google the be-all and the end-all of a life fulfilled? Is Google really perfect? That's what the internal fights are about. We should make search accessible to billions in China! No, we should never lend support to oppressive regimes! We should increase our reach by hiring across demographisc to make sure we truly understand our global user base! No, we should not mess with the hiring recipe that has given Google this dominant position!
These fights come from a sense of responsibility. We at Google are uniquely privileged to work at a company that has immense influence on the world. The fights are about what our responsibilities are to this world. To the people that come to us expecting truth, to those that come to us expecting safety, to those that entrust us with the details of their daily lives, and those of their children.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: the takeaway from this article isn't that you should feel sorry for us. It's that you should be aware that somewhere where you have little influence, fierce battles are being fought that will affect you in ways great and small. Whoever you back, I'd take away that someone is trying to have your back.
> All of those benefits you listed—they are things that any decent society would provide. The fact that Google choosing to be decent is not only so rare, but also contempt-inducing in people who are ground down by other companies is a staggering win for every other company that doesn't want to offer good benefits.
I've been trying to articulate this in this thread, but you've said it far better than I did.
I really hope you're treating your job like a gig to tide you over until you find something better. That environment will crush your soul. Don't let it become your life.
Regardless of what your employer thinks, you don't need a four year degree to make a good living. There are lots of fulfilling careers that don't require you to go to college. On the other hand, if you get a solid engineering degree, you can take on a few tens of thousands of dollars of debt. If you want to study liberal arts, then you should look for ways do it without spending so much money. It can be done.
Figure out what your goals are and what you need to do to achieve them. I'm sure it won't involve staying indefinitely at your current job with the algae in the ice machine.
It sounds like there are multiple OSHA violations at your work so you could report them.
You could buy your own chair for work and I believe you can write it off in tax as a work expense.
Given your long years of work experience you could almost certainly get into a distance learning Master’s degree in the U.K., e.g. the Queen Mary University of London MBA.
You can start with an individual professional award and transfer to a Master’s proper and be done in three years for ~£10,000.
Alternatively you can get a US Bachelor’s for far less than tens of thousands of dollars through transfer credit and credit by examination like the community on degreeforum.net. People have done it in under a year.
It sounds like you’re in a bad situation. I hope things get better for you soon.
>You could buy your own chair for work and I believe you can write it off in tax as a work expense.
We have one employee with their own chair, it required a doctor's note, had to meet certain specifications (I thinks he actually had to show what she was going to buy first) and of course be purchased with their own money.
As far as the two sites you linked, I'm not in the United Kingdom and I doubt many employers would pay attention to those things in the United States.
As far as testing for credit, most colleges still require you to take a significant percentage of your courses through them.
The problem with a degree is I'm 34, if I magically had the funds today to pursue a degree I'd probably graduate around 39. Great, I'd be elligible for entry level work at 39 while there are many high school students graduating high school with an Associates degree and well on the way to their Bachelor's degree so I'd be competing for entry level work in whatever field against 20-22 year old applicants that are willing to work for less money and less benefits while I'm 39~.
Money and conditions aside, age discrimination is very real and degrees aren't even worth today what they were 10 years ago. I was browsing indeed.com trying to find a new job so I could cash out my pension and use it for tuition last week and was finding that even Administrative Assistant positions at small doctor/medical offices were wanting a 4-year degree and larger companies/government agencies were requiring them for the same type of job.
Now keep in mind there are millions, tens of millions, of working adults like me in similar (or worse) positions in life.
49~% of workers in the United States make less than 30k [1] yet 33.4 percent of Americans 25 or older said they had completed a bachelor’s degree or higher [2].
When we hear stories like this article, and then a quick search shows us that an average base salary at google might be 81-173k a year [3] with a mountain of benefits/perks and we here about 'years of misery' we just roll our eyes and think "well, if I cancel my gym membership, and don't have any emergencies, I can retire at 70 instead of 80 unless one of those AI companies puts me out of work."
> As far as testing for credit, most colleges still require you to take a significant percentage of your courses through them.
They generally do but there are three with extremely generous policies, Thomas Edison State University, Charter Oak and Excelsior University in New York. The last demands only one capstone credit be with them. You can transfer everything else.
I wonder if a part-time degree might help you. It would take longer, but you could do it while still working, and perhaps you could apply for positions that ask for degree-level education, while showing that you are in the process of doing a degree? (After all, there is no guarantee all jobs get fully qualified candidates applying, even though the ads ask for that.)
I'm LDS (Mormon) and we have BYU which is well respected, there is a program called BYU-Pathway ( https://byupathway.lds.org ) where for the first year you drive to a local location and take some basic classes, that aren't accredited (so you can't get loans) but do convert to credit at BYU that I've been thinking about doing when the next round starts up here in a month or two, assuming there are enough local applicants to form a class (I've applied, just waiting for enough other people to).
After the year you can apply to BYU Idaho online and they've actually structured the degree in 'certificates' so you earn a 'certificate' from BYU to pad your CV, then another certificate, then another etc and eventually your Bachelor's.
The benefit here is BYU tuition is INSANELY cheap (if you don't fail any classes, 7,800 USD for your Bachelor's but that still stings when I factor in interest and the age handicap when I do have the degree).
The problem here is though, I can't get a loan for the 3 semester and it's something like 400$ a semester, up front each semester, which is a lot of money to me (most of a week's take home).
Also consider I have a GED, haven't been in school for 15-16 years... I've been doing the Khan Academy basic math (started basic division last night) to try and get into the habit of regular study and testing.
Mostly though I'm just doing a lot of "what can I sell and get 400$ for so I don't have to blow my emergency fund". I cancelled my gym membership yesterday which sucks as it's my entire social life, basically the only thing I look forward to and the owner is my friend and we had a bro-hug and both got kinda sad even though we will still see each other, and that savings will cover the 2nd and 3rd semester but doesn't help me with the first.
Last year I had talked myself into looking at WGU since you could do as much as you could handle and didn't pay per credit hour but per unit of time instead... yeah... I had some credits from a failed attempt at an Associates degree when I was 18... I had my transcript sent to them April 9th 2018, they emailed me 4 days ago with the evaluation... glad I didn't take out a bunch of loans for them...
Those are tight circumstances, but you sound really well organized, with a good plan.
The inability to get even a $1200 loan when you have a sensible plan, sucks. Since you are LDS, famed for church community... is that something your church, friends or family might help out with?
In my experience, that's an amount friends lend each other if they've known each other a long time and can do it. Sometimes, with the understanding that the payback terms are extremely flexible. Because that isn't at all a hardship amount for everyone, and it sounds like it could make a big difference to your life.
>is that something your church, friends or family might help out with?
Yes, but I don't like asking for help. Worst case (hopefully they take card) I can put it on a card and then balance transfer to another card to buy some interest free time.
What chaps me is I fund a 529 (10-15$ a month over the past few years, figuring if I ever have kids I could transfer it to them) which would cover the first semester BUT since the first year isn't accredited... it's a non-qualified expense which means if I take the money to pay it I get hit with tax and penalty.
- people wiping on the wall, also multiple instances of feces not IN the toilet (mostly 'I waited too long and sprayed on the back of the toilet sitting down)
- countless "whoops I peed on the floor/wall and couldn't be bothered to clean it up"
- serial nose pick and stickers at the urinals
- someone was trying to flush paper towels down the urinals for several months
- the women have had multiple issues of blood on the toilet seats/floors and at least one instance on the wall
The microwaves have signs stating "do not microwave metal" because people have microwaved metal. The sinks have signs saying do not wash food down the drains (since there is obviously no garbage disposal). Sign saying not to remove the coffee pots from the breakroom. Signs stating the building is fragrance free yet people still come in wearing choking amounts of floral perfumes.
Regular reminders of only TWO personal items, do not touch your desk partners personal belongings, log out when you leave, log out when you leave, log out when you leave, did I mention log out when you leave (because pressing ctrl+alt+del on the lock screen and clicking switch user is SOOOO hard).
Then someone complained about food trucks coming here every few weeks so corporate reminded us food trucks are NOT allowed on the property as it violates company solicitation policies yet if you want something other than reheated food your half hour lunch break does not provide enough time to drive somewhere, buy food, drive back and eat it (unless you eat while you're driving) and don't forget only 'finger food' is allowed at desks yet most of the managers eat in their offices and they'll throw out the rule when they sell hot dogs and chips for 5$ as a fundraiser or when they sell pancakes as a fundraiser (and they cook them next to the ice machine, which makes the ice hardcore taste like pancakes for a day or two after).
But gee don't you know, the company is consistently voted one of the best places to work! Must be those corporate employees that get bonuses (and probably cost of living increases unlike the other 400k plus employees).
I can only imagine the people this company employees if they are spending 35K on a software developer. 90% sure the majority of staff is making minimum wage.
> if they are spending 35K on a software developer.
You do realize not every human being on the planet, or even HN, is a software developer, right?
>90% sure the majority of staff is making minimum wage.
I make 65% of my state's annual HOUSEHOLD income and 2.3x minimum wage... this is a problem with HN, many of you make 6 figure salaries and assume that everyone is a software engineer making 6 figure salaries.
The 2017 nominal median income per capita was $31,786 in the United States.
I make a few thousound more currently as a software dev. Work for government in a poor, red state. Luckily, however my office conditions aren't nearly what the parent comment described.
Oh well... I was the one who asked the question and that's how much I make (software developer in southern Europe, currently working for a bank of all places).
I'm not offended by the statement, but if the difference's so pronounced I'll be happy to hear any opportunities for remote work :P
Ha! I worked for a healthcare company in an office with a couple hundred developers... And yep, at one point, we had a shit on the walls issue...
I dont know if notices went up telling people not to do it though! I could never work out if it was intentional or some people just don't know how to shit???
I dont understand it either...
On the current office it's a piss on the floor issue, no urinals in the men's toilet and apparently some guys can't consistently hit the toilet with their piss!
My experience in high education tells me that if you see shit being wiped on the walls, it's generally a sign of mental health issues - in the case of workplaces, this is definitely a sign of depression or some form of anger toward the company.
When people get to the point where they literally smear their feces on the walls, they're grasping at ways to make a statement about how god-awful their environment is.
Source: Our toxic geology department constantly had shit on the walls, until we completely gutted it and restructured/replaced the administration and policies. Better workplace, no more shit on the walls.
"If it makes you feel any better, I work at Google, but have found toilets with pee all over the floor and toilet seat and much worse I'd rather not talk about. :-)"
I think the GP's point is they don't think there is anything they can afford to do to better their situation in ways that matter.
All actions other than status quo lead to something worse. (Loss of job, unaffordable debt, etc.) And it's a perfectly normal situation in their part of the world for their skills and occupation, so it isn't them, it's just real life for the peasants.
That's why they struggle to find sympathy for those whose situation is vastly better already. It's like listening to royalty complaining about conditions in the palace, when you're a starving peasant.
It's so easy to make excuses for ourselves and others but I don't think making 35k vs making 150k is really anything like being a peasant vs being royalty... but maybe I don't know enough about that topic.
On the one hand, I'm a little impatient with the litany of complaint & dismissal of options like getting a degree... there's always something you can do... but on the other hand, making $35k vs $150k really is like being a peasant vs a royal. On $150k a year you can save -- save a lot if you're in a low cost of living area, save a bit less in a high cost of living area. On $35k a year you are fine if you have good health and no dependents, but if you've got to pay for daycare or elder care or support anyone else, you're on an endless treadmill just this far away from missing a bill or being unable to deal with car trouble or a furnace problem or a sudden eviction because your landlord's brother wants to move in.... it really does feel impossible to make it out of the financial trap. It might not be impossible, but it's very very hard.
Fair enough. You're probably right, although I'm not sure how numbers would apply anyway.
I meant the sentiment: Where life at Google sounds so remote and unachievable to the median-income 31k person, as if walled-off in a luxurious palace on the top of a nearby, annoyingly visible hill; a totally unrelatable life of relative luxury.
My impression is that it is a bit not very self-aware
> I find it extremely difficult to feel any sympathy for these folks because they have it much better than I do, and extremely better than millions of people in the United States and billions of people worldwide.
If you are living in the US, and making 35k, you are in the top 1% income worldwide.
So it is a world 1 percenter complaining about not being in the US 1 percenter, and saying by extension, they do not care about people who have it better.
Applying that same theory globally, 99% of people globally should not care about this post.
>So it is a world 1 percenter complaining about not being in the US 1 percenter, and saying by extension, they do not care about people who have it better.
In my original comment I say:
>I find it extremely difficult to feel any sympathy for these folks because they have it much better than I do, and extremely better than millions of people in the United States and billions of people worldwide.
Much better than I, extremely better than billions worldwide implying I'm well aware I have it much better off than a notable percentage of the global population as 'extreme' is more drastic than 'much'.
Man, I wish I had the problems of these Goooglers.
Sure, sexism and racial discrimination is bad bad bad, but this happens at the vast majority of employers. If I and/or my co-workers tried to do one of these walkouts, security would be there when we came back to take our badges and tell us to leave or the police would be called.
I find it extremely difficult to feel any sympathy for these folks because they have it much better than I do, and extremely better than millions of people in the United States and billions of people worldwide.
A cursory Google search (ha, maybe I should have used Bing) on-site physicians, paid PATERNITY leave, death benefits, leave of absence to pursue education, having Google on your CV probably helps tremendously if you try and get a job somewhere else, Google allows employees to spend 20% of their time pursuing a project that they are passionate about, apparently Googlers can bring their pets to work, have access to all sorts of other benefits like shuttles/food/recreation that simply do not exist for the vast majority of people in the world.
The lifter in my work chair has been broken for years now, it has recently started tilting to the left as well, it is 12 years old. Our windows 10 upgrade removed a functional calculator, something I use every few minutes, requiring me to either buy a calculator or use Google for work-related maths. There are 3 microwaves and 2 small refrigerators for 100~ employees. In the winter the upper 60's are not uncommon in the office with the upper 70's and lower 80's not uncommon in the summer with business casual dress mandatory. Need to go to the doctor, be prepared to at least take a half day which you have to request well in advance most of the time with about a month and a half blacked out every year where no one can take time off. Need a personal day, well you better fake sick and call in and if you call in 2-3x in a 6 month period you're now on their radar and risking verbal warning territory.
I'm sorry, but I just can't feel sorry for them.