NwAvGuy is the truly interesting story, NwAvGuy was some anonymous person who went to audio forums and warred on Schiit pointing out technical problems with their products and the way they do their marketing. I guess someone said if he knew so much about audio why didn't he go out and design and build his own stuff and so he did exactly that designing a headphone amp that has "legendary" status, and then he disappeared... His headphone amp:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.br/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html
At the very least, Schiit seems to be pretty upfront that it probably doesn't help with audio quality in most cases:
++++++++++
Sonic benefits? That’s a lot of hoo-ha!
You’re right. There’s no reason this should make any system sound better.
Although we can measure the difference in USB power supply noise, it really
shouldn’t matter. Despite this, some listeners have said that there are sonic
benefits from using Wyrd. Us, we remain Swiss on the matter—we don’t do the
hard sell by promising sonic nirvana.
Are you saying I need to get this thing if I have a USB DAC?
Nope, not at all. Most USB DACs work just fine when running on computer power,
without any hitches, glitches, or strange noises. However, if you have USB power
problems, this is a great way to eliminate them. Especially if it’s a USB-powered
DAC.
Well, I could just buy a $20 powered hub if I’m having USB port power
management problems, right?
Yep you can, and yep, that would solve that problem.
++++++++++
There's plenty of snake oil to go around in the audiophile community, but Schiit has always seemed to be especially forthright about what their products can and can't do.
(Disclaimer: I own a fair amount of Schiit gear and am a very satisfied customer, so I'm definitely biased positively towards the company)
Their FAQ states that it provides its own 5V power supply for the downstream device and somehow retransmits the USB packets using a high accuracy clock.
The power issue is definitely legitimate. USB power supplies are noisy and the noise can bleed to analog outputs if the soundcard has poor power supply noise rejection - I once built a USB-powered soundcard on the at90usb162 microcontroller and it produced a lot of background noise which was annoingly correlated with CPU activity. It went away when I inserted a 3.3V stabiliser between the USB power rail and the MCU, making it run from this 3.3V power. Reportedly, some commercial devices have similar issues (no links, but googling "USB DAC scrolling noise" may be a good starting point).
OTOH, I'm not sure about the importance of reclocking. USB audio cards synchronize their DAC clocks to USB host clock and hence any USB clock jitter induces DAC clock jitter which causes some amount of distortion, but I know of nobody who verified whether this is important in real world scenarios.
IIRC, clock jitter caused some real problems with SPDIF DACs back in 1980s and some people still feel more comfortable using "high-precision clocks".
Re "whether this is important in real world scenarios", in the context of high-end audio, there are four types of products:
1. Those that make clearly audible and measurable differences. Speakers, headphones, and upgrading from total rock-bottom near-broken electronics.
2. Those that make measurable differences that probably aren't audible. Various super-low distortion figures on amps and DACs, or going from 320kbps MP3 to FLAC. Almust certainly not detectable by human ears, but instruments can see a real, measurable improvement.
3. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are not audible. These are obviously worthless and snake oil.
4. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are audible. These are either magic (none that I've seen so far), reveal limits to our previous understanding of audio measurement (these probably have existed at some point, but I'm skeptical that any current products qualify), or are actually #3 in disguise.
I think the worst you can say about Schiit is that their stuff falls into #2 -- measurably, but not audibly, an improvement over some other thing -- and since they relentlessly refuse to make official claims about the audible properties of their products, I think that puts them into solid respectability as an audio company. The worst you can accuse them of, really, is unnecessary metaphorical gold-plating.
While I don't disagree with any of your points, I do think that a great many people enjoy not just accuracy / objectively more-accurate sound, but certain distortions. The classic example here is a tube amp; while measurably less accurate than many solid-state amps, many people like the slight distortion / compression / "tube sound".
If you feed the computer's 5VDC supply (from the computer's USB port) into the DAC, it might not be as flat as you'd like. Cheap computers regulate their 5VDC supplies to the requirements of the digital logic that makes up the computer.
If you want to provide cleaner power to a USB device, you provide it with an external power supply. Since DACs (or ADCs for audio input) have analog sections, you have to deliver power that meets those specifications.
You might also choose to provide filtering on the USB signal lines if your USB device's circuitry is susceptible to digital noise. USB signals are digital (approximately square waves) which contain harmonics that aren't needed to successfully decode the signal on the receiving end. Filter those out as well as high-frequency transients caused by other devices in the computer.
I don't have any experience with the Wyrd, but I have a MacPro connected to a Bifrost DAC and Asgard 2 amplifier running to a pair of Sennheiser 650 headphones (work/live in a noisy environment). Completely satisfied.
Did you upgrade straight to the Bifrost/Asgard or did you have something like the Vali/Modi before or? I currently have those, but I'm looking at upgrades some time in the future.
I can't speak for cnkeller, but I first got a Modi and Magni. The Modi was good enough, but the Magni wasn't. The problems with the Magni were that it wasn't grounded and its volume pot sucked. The lack of grounding made it very susceptible to interference and crappy volume pot made fine adjustments in volume impossible. I replaced it with an Asgard 2 and have been satisfied ever since.
I suspect that the newer cheap amps such as the Vali and Magni 2 have fixed these issues.
It's pretty sad IMO when anyone selling a >$100 amp cheaps out on the volume pot, since it's a really obvious thing to upgrade, and Alps Blue Velvet pots are used in almost every hobbyist design. I would further question where else they tried to save money. This is a big part of why I like open-design amps / hobbyist / community-designed amps / kits.
Good question. I went to the Bifront/Asgard setup directly without prior Schiit experience (though I did have Sennheiser experience). My previous setup was constructed for a different environment, e.g, speakers and a Denon with a built in DAC/amp.
I can absolutely tell the details in certain albums using the new setup. Hearing the difference between FLAC/ALE and something encoded at 320bps or higher is really dependent on the material though.
Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones. One Head-Fi user recorded a video of this happening. NWAvGuy tried to get answers from Jason Stoddard and ended up being banned from the Head-Fi forums. The whole fiasco is summarized on NWAvGuy's blog.[1] Of course NWAvGuy isn't the most tactful person, but Head-Fi's reaction seems quite overzealous.
>Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones.
Early versions of the product came without a power relay, with the implication being you should have the volume pot all the way down, and unplug your headphones before ever turning the amp on or off. That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment, which both Stoddard and Moffat came from. Not so much in the market that they were targeting with the Asgard.
Since then, they've added a relay to all of their amps that need one, and have offered to add one to any amp that was sold prior to this for free.
The Asgard never actually permanently damaged or destroyed any headphones. The Schiit Lyr, however, did kill a $1.5k pair of Ultrasones Ed 8s, but this was due to an actual defect with a specific unit. Schiit replaced the Ultrasone and the Lyr for the owner.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I've worked in concert halls with half-million-dollar sound systems. You don't flip the power on upstream devices (DSPs, boards, etc.) while the amplifiers are powered on.
In nice, modern installs the system integrator will usually have installed a sequencer. You turn a key and what is essentially a glorified rackmount power strip emits a series of clicks as relays on a timer power on sections of the rack in a safe order. Otherwise it is up to the engineer to start up and shut down according to the correct procedure. A mistake will not necessarily damage equipment, but you will hear it pop - which may be anywhere from subtle to deafening. It is a dumb - and not unheard of - way to blow a speaker.
This is becoming less of an issue as digital audio networking (Dante, etc.) takes hold - there may be no analog connections between the mic itself and the amplifier - but it is absolutely standard with analog interconnections.
I don't know of many big ticket amps you can turn on before you turn on your big ticket preamps and don't run a risk of having an expensive bad day.
Why? Because you are amplifying the turn on signal from the source or preamp.
Every time you have ever turned audio equipment on and heard that thump or pop, you are hearing the same phenomenon that ran the risk of damaging headphones left plugged in. It just so happens in most cases the amount of power involved isn't significant, but it does become so once you enter the realm of high powered amplifiers.
There's nothing inherently wrong about a design that doesn't include a muting relay because it is supposed to be understood how the device is operated, in the same way there's nothing inherently wrong about a car design that doesn't lock the gas tank while the car is online and running - you are supposed to know you shouldn't fill up your gas tank while the vehicle is on, and if you do so, there are risks. (Yes, sparks from the engine compartment of running cars can and do cause fires while refueling, albeit rarely)
The volume control operates on the preamp section, the thump of amplifiers is usually generated on the power amplifier section, usually a sign of a bipolar power supply that at startup and power down rises/lowers voltage unevenly, resulting in DC output to the speakers.
Turning down the volume will do nothing, you have to remove the load and in many cases (speakers) that's infeasible. Not to mention something like a brownout/power loss could end up damaging the transducer anyway.
Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.
>The volume control operates on the preamp section
I'm aware of this - you'll notice I mentioned the volume control specifically for the Schiit gear, and not preamps or power amps in general. If you're using separate preamps and amps, then yes, turning down the volume on the preamp isn't going to matter. With almost all headphone setups, you are doing all volume control on the amp though, and none on the dac - it's pretty rare for there to be a dedicated preamp in the chain when dealing with computer -> headphones.
>Turning down the volume will do nothing
Again, specifically referring to the Schiit gear here, with the volume control details being specifically from them. Sorry if there was confusion and it seemed as if I was saying this in general.
>Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.
Plenty of the best gear out there will include power up sequence instructions - Amps being last on, first off, is something that has been pretty standard for decades. Like James Bongiorno said, even if a muting relay is installed, why tempt fate for no real gain? I'm sure I've got Cary and Audio Research manuals around somewhere with their power up sequences printed in them - are you going to accuse them of shoddy design as well?
My issue isn't with the relays - I'd love it if everything came with one. I don't think there's a downside to having them. (Though habit will keep me using the same power sequence I've been using for forever)
My issue is you've decided that anything that lacks said muting relay is poorly designed or not worth the price:
>No it's not, that's called bad design. Unless high-end now stands for "poorly designed gear sold for 10 times what they're worth"
It's audio equipment. Shouldn't the ultimate judgment on the quality of design be how it actually functions in it's intended purpose, and not whether or not it's the most convenient? Companies have been selling great sounding gear (that measures well) and lasts decades that lack a relay. I simply can't agree that lacking an optional piece that exists only to protect someone from something that they can perform manually overrides every other aspect of the product's design and makes it a poorly designed product.
There's also nothing wrong with cars which don't pop the lock back open if the car is off and the key is in the ignition, except that when such a technology exists, is pretty cheap / easy to implement, and can save users potentially a lot of trouble, why would you not implement it?
I would argue that there is something wrong with amps / pre-amps which pop when turned on: it's sloppy design which doesn't even save much cost, and the risk is huge for end-users. Humans make mistakes. I don't think anyone would propose that a checklist be used every time you want to turn on your hi-fi because some EE (or very likely some Chinese ODM) wanted to save a few wires and a few cents.
> There's also nothing wrong with cars which don't pop the lock back open if the car is off and the key is in the ignition, except that when such a technology exists, is pretty cheap / easy to implement, and can save users potentially a lot of trouble, why would you not implement it?
If you drive an armored car, then you wouldn't want the doors to automatically unlock whenever you put it in park. An ICE agent was killed three years ago in Mexico because of this feature.
I should be more clear: I am a fan of relays. I think everything should have them for convenience and peace of mind.
But at the same time, I'm not willing to dismiss a product just because it lacks an optional feature that would have made it more convenient for me. I'm not going to say something is poorly designed and not worth the cost if every other thing it is meant to do, it does well. I'm more concerned with the core features of the product than added niceties.
My only issues were the idea that this was something that wasn't standard fare (since it is, though the publicity related to this incident has caused quite a few manufacturers to switch to including relays on everything - which I'm perfectly okay with!) and that it is somehow damning to the product design on the whole.
If I buy a Lotus Elise, there's a lot of nice functionality that probably wouldn't cost much to implement that I could find on cheaper cars that I'll be missing out on - but those weren't things I was looking for when I purchased the Elise.
Have you spent much time on the Head-Fi forums? People get banned all the time for advertising things who aren't at all related to any sort of feud with forum sponsors.
nwavguy was specifically told to stop advertising in the manner he was, and he didn't. Plenty of other people have gotten the same PM from jude.
It wasn't his posts. Yesterday, he sent a hostile, unsolicited private message to one of our moderators that was forwarded to me. Among other things, in that message he brought up his attorney, and I have no patience for those who resort to what several moderators (myself included) interpreted as a legal threat (however veiled) as a bullying tactic.
For that, it's at least a tentative ban for him. And that's as much as I'll say about it, because we generally do not discuss bans publicly.
Ah, yep, you're right - it's been quite some time since everything happened, and I misremembered it slightly. Though, what ultimately set it in motion was the advertising.
What he took exception to was my request that
(a) he remove the link to his blog from his signature, and
(b) that he refrain from linking to his blog frequently.
When he was asked these things, he took great exception to
the request; and, not surprisingly, even more so when the
links were removed. What he doesn't post
(and what I have the messages to prove, as I'm sure does he)
is that I told him he was more than welcome to post his
information here, instead of posting teasers here and
then linking to his site to finish. I told him at some
point he might be able to do that here; but, again, not
before he had shown that one of his primary reasons for
being here wasn't to redirect to his blog.
Your tenses are wrong. They used to have that problem, but they fixed it (including a retro-fix for previously sold units), and no current models have that issue.
Yes, that was an absolute fiasco, but it's more of a problem with Head-Fi banning anyone who criticizes their sponsors because they make their money off of nurturing massive audiophile cargo cults.
Schiit products are battle-tested, high quality and high-value. You can tell the company is run by people who care about what they do.
I knew nothing about Schitt, next to nothing about audio, but I hold a MSc in EE and CS and I'm the CTO of a Saas company. This book is definitely a good read, full of insight and fun to read
Do you seriously make your stuff in the USA?
Yep. We worked long and hard to get our designs and
chassis so they could be assembled by first-world labor
for prices similar to the Chinese. ...
But wouldn’t it be cheaper doing it in China?
Maybe. But we’re not going to find out.
Well, hell, all your parts are probably Chinese anyway,
right? Um, no. The majority of our parts, on a total
cost basis, come from right here in the USA, from
companies manufacturing their products in the USA. ...
As the Least Interesting Guy in the Hardware World, I don't always start companies, but when I do, I always make sure to insult 75% of my potential market.
I'm not entirely sure that I'd consider that insulting, but, from the forward:
Be memorable—this isn’t about getting everyone to like you,
this is about getting some people to love you.
The company isn't built around catering to a massive amount of people, but instead a niche. And there's definitely a market out there that is very much swayed by the "Made in the USA, from parts sourced in the USA" line of rhetoric
Yeah, absolutely, and I really like a lot of what I'm reading in the .PDF that darinf put together.
But this is still an instance of taking the low road. We all live on the same planet, and commercial jingoism isn't the way forward.
Edit: if you "aren't sure if you consider it insulting," try reversing the roles. Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible. How do you suppose that will play in Peoria?
>Edit: if you "aren't sure if you consider it insulting," try reversing the roles. Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible. How do you suppose that will play in Peoria?
If Peoria had largely created an industry based on creating things at the absolute cheapest price point and gained a reputation for making sacrifices in quality to do so, I feel like they wouldn't really have a lot of room to complain.
Having spent time in China and having experience with Chinese manufacturers, I wager most Chinese would continue to take our money and ignore minor slights such as this, if you can even call it that. The immediate need to jump up and be offended by the smallest thing, especially on behalf of the "Other"/non-Westerners, is a phenomenon fairly unique to the Western world.
you didn't specify high end consumer audio equipment.
anything made within those restrictions has a high chance of being made by capable people and as such would be a positive indicator for a buyer such as me.
i gave the military grade stuff as an example of something made within those restrictions by capable people.
