“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984
One thing you could do to see what other people think the same is to video yourself doing this exact motion, then send it to your co workers telling them your heart goes out to them.
Many other people including many prominent Democrats[1] have also performed similar gestures in the past, granted while saying different things than "my heart goes out to you".
So no, that is not a Nazi salute unless you are going to be fair and count all such gestures from everyone as Nazi salutes.
People are free to hate Musk if they want, that's their prerogative; but if they are going to be disingenuous about it I am going to call them out and lose whatever respect I might have had for them.
>“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
Ironically, it is "The Party" (the Left) telling me to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears and submit to their programming that it's a Nazi salute. Fuck that noise and I hope you realize the irony of your argument.
I won't repeat the stark and damning evidence that was given to you by dragonwriter that these claims are not only obviously false but seem like a desperate attempt to ignore the truth, which is that this is a nazi sieg heil salute being done forcefully and intentionally.
I'll repeat the question you didn't answer - are you comfortable doing this exact motion on video and sending it to your coworkers, family and friends? Do you think there might be fallout or repercussions?
I'll ask another question. Is there anything that he could have been done differently to make it more like a sieg heil? To me, it looks identical. What is missing that would in your mind make it a nazi salute?
Finally, if you did come to the conclusion that this was a nazi salute by the richest man on the planet at a political rally seen by the entire world, would that change anything for you personally?
>are you comfortable doing this exact motion on video and sending it to your coworkers, family and friends?
Sure, why wouldn't I? I'm not fucking Hitler and anyone worth caring about knows that.
>Do you think there might be fallout or repercussions?
No, other than from people looking to deliberately cause problems where there are none.
>Is there anything that he could have been done differently to make it more like a sieg heil? To me, it looks identical. What is missing that would in your mind make it a nazi salute?
Actually think, speak, and act like an actual Nazi.
>if you did come to the conclusion that this was a nazi salute by the richest man on the planet at a political rally seen by the entire world, would that change anything for you personally?
If I thought of this as a Nazi salute that also means he was doing many other things to demonstrate he's a Nazi, so no: Nothing in my thought process would change.
Proper judgments of a man's character are made over a sufficiently long period of time, one singular act isn't going to move the needle in a significant direction one way or another.
If I thought Musk was a Nazi now then I would have come to the conclusion he is a Nazi a long time ago (and to be clear we are speaking in your hypothetical scenario).
So even though Elon Musk went to a rally for the far right party in germany on january 9th, talked about immigration, hitler, said germans need to get over their nazi guilt, and encouraged people to vote for the 'far right' party, then gave a nazi salute in front of the world 11 days later, because you decided he wasn't a nazi a long time ago, he must not be now?
Do you have a description of what kind of evidence would convince you someone is a modern nazi or 'poor character'?
>the far right party in germany on january 9th, talked about immigration,
Yeah, being against rampant immigration(?) is a very Nazi stance. Sure.
Naw. There's nothing Nazi about wanting to control or restrict who comes into your country; entering a country as a foreigner is a privilege, not a right.
As an aside, efforts to exclude AfD from elections is what is actually Nazi about German goings on. It's not really my place to speak about Germany's domestic affairs as an American, but if you want my honest opinion the German Left is projecting on the Right with authoritarian fury.
>said germans need to get over their nazi guilt,
Speaking as a Japanese, in my opinion Germans should indeed get over their Nazi guilt. History should never be forgotten and the lessons should be taught and remembered, but to drag that guilt across generations is ridiculous. Children are not responsible for the sins of their parents, let alone farther back.
Japan needs to get over Imperial Japan guilt and be proud about being Japanese again too; Japan's case isn't quite as bad as Germany's but there's still a ways to go.
>Do you have a description of what kind of evidence would convince you someone is a modern nazi or 'poor character'?
There are many, some that come to mind include:
* Support racism. Hitler was big on elevating what he called Aryans as the One True Race and exterminating Jews with extreme prejudice.
Musk (and Trump, Republicans, as well as most sensible Americans for that matter) advocate for meritocracy, judging people by their character and capabilities without regard to race or other immutable traits because All Men Are Created Equal.
* Advocate for cruel and unusual punishment. The Nazis used gas chambers and other torturous and humiliating methods of maiming and killing.
Literally noone here in America wants that shit, and those who do are rightfully shamed into oblivion (see: Guantanamo, et al.)
* Advocate for and engage in regulation of speech and thought. The Nazis are a textbook on how to control a population to their bidding, even the Soviets drew lessons from them.
Musk has his share of hypocrisy (why aren't you picking those to criticize him over?), but fundamentally he argues and acts for free speech. Likewise Trump and most Republicans, and certainly any American who understands and respects the Constitution. Some Nazis they/we are.
* Gathering and centralizing absolute power.
Musk's job in Federal government is on a strict and temporary schedule set to expire in July 2026, and he doesn't even have any actual authority. That's not a Nazi, let alone a Fuhrer. Likewise Trump who has consistently advocated for States' rights and reducing the Federal government especially the Executive Branch, and Republicans who have always spoken as the party of small government (whether they are is a different matter).
Citing Nazi ideology without invoking Godwin's Law requires actual, real Nazis to be the subject of debate. Please stop calling everyone and everything you don't like Nazis at the first opportunity, you don't realize how hard you are shooting yourself in the foot by doing so.
> Musk has his share of hypocrisy (why aren't you picking those to criticize him over?)
Because I'm not trying to criticize Elon Musk here, I'm trying to understand the cognitive dissonance between seeing two picture perfect sieg heils back to back and denying that that's what happened.
It seems like you agree that the motion is identical, but you are saying that it is a sieg heil but not a 'nazi salute' because elon musk "does not" support racism, advocate for cruelty, regulate speech, or centralize power.
>Because I'm not trying to criticize Elon Musk here,
But you (and others like-minded) are. You're latching on to a Nazi salute you've projected onto him and trying to use it as the point of criticism. You yourself just admitted you "see [a] perfect sieg heil", even.
>It seems like you agree that the motion is identical, but you are saying that it is a sieg heil but not a 'nazi salute'
He did it while shouting "My heart goes out to you!" to the crowd, so it's not a "sieg heil" either. If he's saluting anyone/thing at all, he's saluting the people and the spirit of America.
I couldn't care less if it's identical, though if you really want my honest opinion on judging that: I wouldn't think of Adolf Hitler as the first thing; then again I don't have my mind in the proverbial Progressive gutter either.
>elon musk "does not" support racism, advocate for cruelty, regulate speech, or centralize power.
Yeah, or to rephrase: In what ways is Elon Musk a Nazi? In the true, real, proper sense of the term "Nazi". Not the dirty word "Nazi" that gets thrown around like candy on disagreeables.
What I think you need to ask yourself is: Why is "Nazi!" the first thing that comes to your mind and is that really justifiable?
You're quite welcome to hate Musk if you want to, I have no problem with that and Musk can defend himself if he feels the need. I couldn't care less. But I am concerned for your mental health if you need to scream Nazi allegations to justify it.
> Many other people including many prominent Democrats have also performed similar gestures in the past
Every time someone tries to support this they use stills, and when you pull the video of the events, its clear that—unlile Musk—while there may be similarity of hand position at one point, the actual gesture (which is a movement, not just a momentary position) is not the “Roman”/fascist/Nazi salute, while Musk's is exactly that salute.
>Every time someone tries to support this they use stills
Considering the vast majority of the hit pieces use stills of Musk, onus is on them.
>while Musk's is exactly that salute.
You can make practically anything into Nazi hate speech if you drill down hard enough putting any and all inconvenient factors aside.
There's plenty of valid shit to criticize Musk for, but if you're going to evoke Godwin's Law[1] or Reductio ad Hitlerum[2] to justify your distaste for him then I'm going to roll my eyes and move on. That shit didn't work before and it certainly isn't going to work now.
Yeah, that ain't a Nazi salute unless you hate Musk so much that anything he does is Nazism without regard.
I reiterate: Evoking Godwin's Law or Reductio ad Hitlerum is not going to work.
It didn't work when Harris called Trump a fascist, nor all the times before that, and it won't work now either. It defies context and it's not even funny let alone accurate.
What would it take for you to consider something to be a Nazi salute?
In the first video all the gestures from all the people are so similar that if they had been wearing motion capture suits and you gave any random person that motion capture data and asked them to pick out which one was not a Nazi salute they would do no better than chance.
>What would it take for you to consider something to be a Nazi salute?
The guy doing it would need to be an actual Nazi, for starters. Musk is many things and avenues of criticizing him are plentiful, but a Nazi in the real sense he is not.
People call Musk (and many many others) a "Nazi" simply because they hate him without paying regard to what a Nazi even is. Nazi is a dirty word, you call someone a dirty word to hate on him. It's all meaningless, and even worse the overuse of Nazi in this manner dilutes its meaning that most people eventually stop caring being called one.
Even symbols like the Iron Cross and Jerusalem Cross that have nothing to do with Nazism are labeled Nazi symbols, again diluting the value of calling someone or something a Nazi.
Stop calling everyone and everything you hate or even just slightly disagree with a Nazi. Seriously. It only signals a surrendering of thought given to any better arguments for your cause (Godwin's Law) and alienates you from everyone outside your small echo chamber. The worst chain of events is that if this keeps up, we absolutely will see actual Nazis come into positions of power and nobody will care because the boy cried wolf far too many fucking times.
https://imgur.com/UFrmbJs
Let's not forget when the convention stage was exactly (not almost) an odal rune.
https://auschwitz.info/en/welcome/announcements/artikel/lese...
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984
One thing you could do to see what other people think the same is to video yourself doing this exact motion, then send it to your co workers telling them your heart goes out to them.