PPP loans weren't really loans. It was known they would be forgiven before taking them out. If that had not been the case, most businesses would not of participated. I believe they were structured as loans providing a mechanism for congress to pass the aid immediately.

Actual business loans require assets/collateral, even those from the SBA. At least this has been my personal experience with my businesses. You can't get a loan with no credit or assets (like a student can).

That’s the part that doesn’t make sense to me. Businesses make way more money than an individual, so why charge the individual more APR?

And PPP really should not have been forgivable - if you run a business, then it’s your responsibility to have enough money in the coffers to survive any economic downturns. Individuals get punished way more harshly than businesses when things go south.

That's not really true imho. If we are going to be pedantic and talk about the pandemic, almost all taxpayers received individual stimulus checks in the thousands. On top of that those with children received a lot more. The vast majority of PPP loans went to small business and it was to make up for the government shutting down parts of the economy (it wasn't simply an economic downturn). I don't agree with how hastily and sloppy it was administered, you'd think we would have plans in place beforehand. But hey it's the government.

As far as interest rates, I had six figures of student loans and they were at 2.88%. Rates today are higher, but that's because they very loosely follow the federal funds rate. This is no different for business loans. But loosely speaking, interest rates on federal student loans are pretty low compared to other types of loans.

In fact, the reason the stock market reacts so badly to interest rate increases is precisely because it increases the cost of borrowing for business.

I would kill for such a low interest rate. I graduated soon after the financial crisis and the cheapest loan I had was 4.88%, with the average being 6%, and some were even 8%. I can (could have?) finance a car for cheaper, which is a bit ridiculous to me. Personally, there should be a cap or a set interest rate for education loans but I understand that it’s a contentious statement.

Yeah there were stimulus checks, and I saw a lot of people say something like “wow look at all these handouts people are getting, they don’t deserve it all!” but then they turn around and say the PPP was the greatest thing ever and businesses deserved them.

I think we are too critical of individual choices nowadays, but not critical enough of the terrible choices that businesses make. That’s probably the gist of my discontent.

> And PPP really should not have been forgivable - if you run a business, then it’s your responsibility to have enough money in the coffers to survive any economic downturns. Individuals get punished way more harshly than businesses when things go south.

If that business goes under, how many individuals are out of a job?

The PPP loans were intended to keep _individuals_ employed.

Where are we taking anti-individual stances? I'm pretty sure you are misreading the world here. Nobody mentioned individuals at all - the question is just how much you blame businesses vs lawmakers.

I claim that the blame here really rests on big government for creating this fucked up system, not the businesses that work within it. By the way, I blame the government for the PPP fiasco too.

None of this is particularly pro-business, but a lot of people are apologists for big government and need to be disabused of that notion.

you are right basically -- with the caveat that "business has shown the ability to be responsible with money" while individuals fail at this for a large variety of reasons. However, in many societies past and elsewhere, not every single individual adult has to manage money like a business. Zoom out a bit and you might imagine that government now treats corporations as a person, and persons like they have to behave like a business.

In what world have businesses shown the ability to be responsible with money?

I did put is quotes !! .. meaning that it is something that has been said, not something that is true in itself.

Fair! I wrongly read that as an endorsement of the idea.

> Why do we take anti-individual stances, but pro-business stances?

You're presuming a fact that's not in evidence. I know it's the flavor of the month whataboutism to point to PPP as an excuse to forgive student debt, but PPP was wildly unpopular amongst people who didn't directly benefit from it as well. I have full faith the SBA makes terrible loans as well.

Also, anti-student loan isn't exactly an anti-individual stance. It can also be interpreted as anti-University subsidy. And when you look at the absurd wages professors and administrators can command at these places, I wouldn't blame someone for thinking these loans are distorting the market so badly that it harms consumers/taxpayers while enriching professors and administrators.

I 100% agree that universities are not incentivized to keep their costs low, and there are so many that could run on a much leaner funding.

> You're presuming a fact that's not in evidence. I’m not so sure about that. How many executives get paid remarkably well, even though they fail miserably? Sometimes even with tax payer money.

The fact that's being presumed is that "people" approve of corporate welfare.