Just speculation, but I have the impression that alcohol "problems" are a larger problem in countries where the age required to legally buy alcohol is rather high.
In my home country (Austria) I could buy alcohol at age 13 without any problems. No one would ask for an ID. I think nowadays they are a little bit stricter, but you are still legally allowed to buy alcohol once you turn 16. Once you turn a little bit older alcohol isn't that interesting any more. Of course, you'd still buy a beer (or more) if you're partying with friends, but getting totally wasted is something teenagers would do.
I've moved to the US some time ago, and here I have the impression that even people in their late-twenties get regularly drunk just "because they can" and are "allowed to do so". Seems they just never learned how to use alcohol responsibly while they were young, and at some age it's too late to learn it.
My thoughts exactly. Having traveled a bit, I've noticed that the stiffer the alcohol regulations, the more irresponsible people tend to be with their drinking when they come of age. The result of a whole lot of new found liberties all at once, with no real grasp of what the small prints attached really entail. I remember in my early 20s, when some of my American friends' idea of having fun was let's go out get wasted and I was puzzled by this notion.
In my opinion, being responsible with alcohol requires experience, which we all know is acquired through trials and error. I share the controversial belief that parents should be the ones to responsibly shepherd their kids' drinking habits. They shouldn't just wait for them to turn 21 and discover it in the "wild", or worse, let them go in those popular drinking safaris in Canada or Mexico, where the legal age is lower and regulations somewhat more loosely applied.
It's a good theory, but on the other hand stiffer alcohol regulations could be a response to a larger underlying prevalence in alcohol abuse.
You often find more police stations in places with more crime. Does that mean police stations cause crime? I doubt it. You could argue police stations cannot reduce crime to the levels of lesser crime areas but you cannot say that police stations are the cause of crime. The reality is: there is crime so you build police stations, not the other way around.
I believe this is the same for alcohol regulations. There are a lot of alcohol abuse so they make alcohol regulations stiffer. It may be true that regulations does nothing to reduce abuse and actually cause people to abuse alcohol even more but there is no evidence to prove this unambiguously.
>could be a response to a larger underlying prevalence in alcohol abuse
You have an interesting theory, I'll hands down give you that, its a compelling perspective and I've never heard our nation's alcohol relationship in those terms, but that having been said, I feel like our nation is one that historically has overestimated our problems with alcohol. It may be a response to prevalence, I'm not going to take that away, but there is also the factor that we perceive the same prevalence differently.
I grew up near the Vermont/Canada border, the first time I went up there to drink I was 14 and we were raging it hard in some Quebecois' basement. I went upstairs to take a leak and almost shit a brick because unbeknownst to me, their parents were chilling upstairs watching TV and were fine with the fact we were getting wasted and hooking up in the basement. One of the girls that had gone up to cananda with me was puking her guts out in the basement bathroom and refusing to speak anything but broken French and they were completely fine with this. All the Quebecois' parents knew they were off getting trashed and were fine with it too, hell the mother of the family me and pukey mcgee were staying with us bought us our booze. A few years later I had a handful of friends at my place in the states and we had a few shots in the attic over newyears. My parents found and were pissed, my, and everyone that was there's, parents yelled at us quite a bit.
So we might have more abuse here, but we certainly define abuse differently.
Chiming in with more anecdotal evidence. My folks allowed us to (illegally) drink alcohol starting at age 14. It was something we did during special occasions, and we'd of course drink smaller portions due to body size differences. Reaching "drinking" age was no big deal.
Only once in my life have I ever drunk so much I threw up. And that was on my 25th birthday when I got a bit careless.
There are other reasons why "binge drinking" appears to be higher in anglo countries (US, Britain, Canada, etc...). Especially among the upper middle class. Longer work weeks than the rest of the industrialized world, less vacation days, etc... Drinking age may play a role in our propensity towards binge drinking, but I think it also has a lot to do with our "work hard, play hard" mentality.
I agree that the easy availability of alcohol to teenagers in most European countries seems to achieve the effect that you describe.
There is another angle to this though - is it better to engage in binge drinking right in the middle of adolescence, when the body and mind is at a rapid pace of development, or in your twenties, when you are physically better equipped to deal with the effects of excessive alcohol consumption?
I am not a medical professional, but instinctively, the second option seems to me to be the safer one.
> your twenties, when you are physically better equipped to deal with the effects of excessive alcohol consumption?
Why would you believe that? I don't have any specific knowledge, but I also see no reason to believe that you're better equipped (physiologically) at 25 to handle alcohol than you are at 15.
You aren't still growing, so the binge drinking can't mess up your development processes. You have more body mass, so a given amount of alcohol will cause less of an increase in your BAC.
I would imagine that drunk walking has less of a chance of killing others though. This doesn't even have to be by-standers. For example, with 4 drunk teenagers in a car, it just takes 1 drunk teen to kill 4. On the other hand, if you have 4 drunk walking teens, that kind of outcome is far less likely.
Are we comparing same levels of drunken-ness here? What about the difference between 4 drunk teens each walking alone vs. 4 drunk teens walking in a group (where it's possible to look out for one another)?
The difference between drunk walking and drunk driving is that, while a drunk walker is a danger only to himself, a drunk driver is a threat to others.
A drunk walker careening into traffic poses no threat? Must note the "level" of drunkenness; motor skills at acceptable level but "above" limit per-law? You can still get public intoxication fines / jail, as well as a DUI if you hop on a bike (also highly dangerous).
This is of course bullshit. There is however, an interesting paragraph (StGB § 323a) that says you can go to jail for up to 5 years for being intoxicated if you get drunk deliberately and then commit a crime but are deemed criminally incapable.
In short, it affects spatial working memory, verbal encoding and ability to inhibit ourselves. These effects don't seem that nefarious, and not so prominent in affecting our lives in a significant way; but don't take my word because I'm no neuro scientist.
On the other hand, on personal experience I've seen greater social issues with people that are heavy drinkers in their post adolescence period.
To me it's the people in the US who are the responsible ones. I moved here a while ago from Australia. Being blind drunk in Australia is for the most part acceptable at every level of society. Here in the USA, I'm sure it's acceptable somewhere but my experience so far is that it's viewed more like you're a fool who just never learned how to pace yourself.
I have the gotten the same impression from my wife, who is British. While the typical Brit doesn't go through the same sort of binge period in college, they tend to get drunk much more often throughout life. It's pretty much the norm to go to a family social gathering where everyone gets drunk or near drunk (including the 60+ year old grandfather). In fact, it's considered very odd (even anti-social) to not drink.
I just moved to London, and I was initially shocked at how early the pubs outside the office (Carnaby Street) start to fill up. Wed-Fri there are people drinking at 11am, and it starts to get downright crowded by 2-3pm. If the weather is nice it gets insane to the point of the street becoming impassable. Later on, say past midnight it looks like there's a palpable increase in the homeless population until you look closer and realize that a surprising number of non-homeless people are just passed out in the street. Okay, this is Soho, so it hardly represents the UK at large, but it's clear that the drinking culture is far more widespread.
I've also found myself drinking more, like having a pint or two several times a week. One reason is because there are so many good ales here, but also the weather and winter darkness makes it more appealing. It makes you feel warm and cozy somehow, where by contrast, drinking on a sunny beach makes you feel light-headed and exhausted.
I'm not sure. I think it depends whether the not drinking till some ages is self-imposed, or externaly imposed, and how much external that prohibition is.
For example I weren't drinking till 18, because I was very religious in primary/secondary school, and priests encouraged promising to yourselves to never drink till 18. Most people didn't care, I did (religion is nice mind-hack, btw, it's a shame it stops working when you don't believe it anymore).
So I had to learn to party without alcohol, and I did. Some people were unfriendly because of that, but I figured they were obviously dumb, if me not drinking spoils their fun, so I won't care about them.
Then I got 18, go to university, and drink alcohol like everybody, but never feel the need to drink too much. As for now I'm 28, and I've never had hangover, or lost memory. And I was partying hard at university.
In my country you can buy alcohol from 18, but enforcement is not very strict, so kids start drinking in primary school, because it's cool, because you're gambling system. Of course most people grow up eventually. Binge drinking is a part of culture (well, wódka is Polish/Russian invention :) ), but young people prefer beer, and you have to really want to got drunk, when drinking beer, to got drunk.
I think it more depends on the attitude and example of parents (mine had drink on occasions, but I've never seen my parents drunk. They also never made the alcohol sound like it's some great forbidden fruit they had to protect me from).
So, I completely agree with you regarding the observable counterproductive nature of over-restrictive substance laws, but I'm curious why you put "problems" in quotes. I ask because I've seen a tendency in some cultures to feel that alcohol addiction doesn't exist, or that it's an issue that is severely overstated elsewhere.
I do not think it is about regulation, in Slovakia where I am from or Czech where I study it is really easy to buy alcohol in younger age, but people tend to get shitfaced all the time, regardless whether they are 16 or 26... It depends largely on culture.
Same observation in China: all the heavier drinkers seem to be foreigners (me included).
Now we have to question the cause/effect relationship. Do we have higher age limits because we have alcohol problems or do we have alcohol problems because the age limit is high?
You're not alone. I personally experienced in many of the different places I lived in as a teenager, from places where you almost never get carded at all, to places where the threshold is 15/16.
One thing is the official age limit. Another, and much more important thing, is the age when the parents start serving alcohol to their children.
My parents allowed me to have a small sips starting when I was 5. At that point in my life, I could not understand why adults wanted to drink such awful stuff when there was sweet soda. My parents have never said NO to me when I asked for alcohol.
Result? I learned that alcohol is something you drink in moderation, I've never been (really) drunk, I've never associated alcohol with rebellion or a necessity for having fun or having a diner.
To go even further, it's just another beverage that tastes nasty. As a kid, my mom and dad let me taste a variety of beers/wines from time to time when I asked, and every time I thought it was disgusting. I still don't drink primarily because even years later I cannot stand the taste of alcohol, even when it's diluted; my secondary reason is because I don't want to limit my experience of life.
Why the false dichotomy? The author seems to imply that the alternatives are 1) never touching a drop of alcohol, or 2) getting blind drunk, being incapable of controlling your actions, and blacking out. There are some good points in there about how you shouldn't "need" alcohol, and arguments against getting totally wasted, but he seems to be completely ignoring a huge, huge middle ground.
For a lot of people, it's not a false dichotomy; there is no middle ground. And I'm not necessarily talking about alcoholism either (though that qualifies); the insidious thing about alcohol is that it clouds your judgement and makes abuse more likely. So you've had a few drinks and you're having fun, hanging out with friends, feeling pretty good. And then everyone is ordering another round, which is almost certainly a bad idea from a logical perspective. But you're not thinking logically anymore, so you do too.
Think about it like this: how many people who drink have been drunk to the point of throwing up (and subsequently hungover) more than once or twice? Most people who drink would answer yes. And that makes zero sense; what logical person would choose to experience that misery more than once? And yet many do it almost every weekend. Because alcohol screws up your brain.
> the insidious thing about alcohol is that it clouds your judgement and makes abuse more likely. So you've had a few drinks and you're having fun, hanging out with friends, feeling pretty good. And then everyone is ordering another round, which is almost certainly a bad idea from a logical perspective. But you're not thinking logically anymore, so you do too.
...or you can hang out with friends who drink like responsible adults (and not like overgrown frat kids.) Excessive drinking isn't a result of alcohol consumption as much as the drinking culture in the US. We have this notion that "when people drink they act like idiots with clouded judgement," which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other countries where attitudes toward alcohol are different there's a marked difference in how people behave under the influence. Now, while you can't do a ton about the way US culture as a whole views alcohol consumption, you can make it a point to socialize with people who know how to have a good time while drinking in moderation (or influence your friends to be more responsible in the way they drink.)
(More about how behavior under the influence is actually determined by our social expectations and not a characteristic of alcohol itself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317 For instance, "This basic fact has been proved time and again, not just in qualitative cross-cultural research, but also in carefully controlled scientific experiments - double-blind, placebos and all. To put it very simply, the experiments show that when people think they are drinking alcohol, they behave according to their cultural beliefs about the behavioural effects of alcohol.")
The cultural inability to drink moderately is not inherently American. Seems you have a bit of a cultural bias, as you left out some notorious drinking cultures: Germany, Japan, Australia, and the UK among them.
what logical person would choose to experience that misery more than once?
Because people are not logical and make decisions and trade offs. As proof, child birth is supposed to be one of the most painful things ever. And yet there are people who do it more than once. People do not make the logical "that was sore, i'd better not do it again" decisions you think they do.
Other examples: smoking, harder drugs, not exercising, eating fatty foods, running a marathon (people can't walk up stairs for a day or two after running a marathon), etc.
The hard part is to realize that you belong to the group that cannot be on the middle ground. It took me at least 4 years to fully realize that. It is everything or nothing. Trying to keep a balance between the two extremes takes so much effort, leaves a lot of room for failure and requires to adapt patterns. The black-and-white approach is simple and effective. It does not require you to think a lot and there is not much room for error.
Thinking clearly about what amount of alcohol is appropriate for you while you are actively incapacitating yourself is just very hard for some people. While I appreciate relativity and nuances it's just not worth it in this case.
You're completely right for some people. But alot of people think that fun can't be had without alcohol. And its catchy title. But your right, it could say simply "You don't need alcohol to have fun"
The title is probably more link-baity then I really intended... and I'm sure a better writer could have some up with something that captured interest without polarizing people.
The whole post is less about drinking and more about finding the ability to have an amazing time, any time, owned by your mental ability. If you can do that, and you don't use alcohol to get there, then that's awesome and I'm stoked for you. The post was written for people who do party hard and use alcohol to be happier/more social/funny etc.
Once a week there is a post on HN where I fail to understand how it got so up-voted. This is that post. If not for the moderate condescension and proselytism, I wouldn't think much of it; instead, I've become inspired to comment.
OP probably does feel more "fun" in a given month than most of us. But the article comes across as though the reader has never experienced such a life.
A lot of us have - in our teenage years. The life of skinny dipping, cross-dressing, and acting like an idiot, all without the aid of alcohol, aptly describes my own. Sure, those times were fun, perhaps among the most fun of my life. But a lot of that fun came from both their novelty and ignorance of the perhaps more enjoyable adult fun (alcohol, sex). Unfortunately, as life went on, those activities grew mundane. (Besides, one seeks higher levels of happiness as he ages, for instance the self-actualization that comes with building a successful business). In a sense, I envy the author's enjoying such activities at 30 as much as a teen would. Why he thinks he is able to would make a great follow-up blog post. Most of society after all shifts to the "adult fun".
On another note, the extremism of the post bothers me. The author equates drinking alcohol with getting drunk. Which of course excessive consumption causes. But I can certainly remember everything if I consume just a few shots, but those said shots certainly make the world around me seem much more entertaining.
First, I agree with people pointing out that alcohol doesn't have to be for getting drunk. At the moment I have three near-empty boxes of beer (bottles), six part-drunk bottles of whisky, and a few empty wine bottles. None of that alcohol has been consumed by myself or anyone else to the point of being even buzzed, yet alone drunk.
However, I do enjoy getting drunk. I've never drunk so much I threw up, or fell over, or hit anyone, or... etc. But yes, when I'm out with friends or colleagues we will happily enjoy a night with much alcohol flowing - enough to be classed by the UK government as "booze drinking", at least.
I sometimes do or say something I feel embarassed about afterwards (most recent example was a conversation about poetry with a London taxi driver at ~5am), but nothing I've been ashamed of.
Sure, I can have fun without alcohol. Sometimes I do - certainly I've never had the thought that being drunk is a requirement for having fun. It just provides a different type of fun. Different things make you laugh, you have different conversations...
Obviously these things vary for different people, I've known people who I don't want to be around when they're drunk - but also plenty of people just like me.
edit: Just read the first paragraph of this comment and thought "I wrote that myself and even I think that sounds like an alcoholic in denial". When I'm out and drinking I'll drink a lot, when I'm at home I'll have a glass or two over an evening. If I tried to get drunk off the whisky I have at home it would be a really expensive night.
It sounds like you have a really high tolerance for alcohol. I've had a few friends like that, they could drink a whole case of beer. I myself drink 3 beers and I'm pretty well buzzed. Never could drink that kind if quantity. I do enjoy a great beer, though.
A few of my buds with the high tolerance seemed to get themselves into trouble eventually with booze, though. DUIs in particular, lots of legals bills. One turned raging alcoholic and is still in a shambles.
Not trying to say that will happen to you, I just notice of my friend for whom booze did become a problem - they share that trait of being able to drink a lot without seeking to ever get drunk.
I believe there are various medical reasons for alcohol to effect people differently (one of which is body weight, which presumably is a part of it for me), but also it's very influenced by experience. The more you drink, the better you can hold your drink.
I think that's probably the reason for your link between people with high tolerance and people for whom alcohol became a problem. It's not that having a high tolerance is problematic, it's just that anyone who gets drunk enough to have problems with it has probably drunk enough in the past to have built up a pretty good tolerance.
Personally I find my tolerance level varies greatly - I assume things like tiredness, what I've eaten, time between drinks and other stuff is in play, but I've never really clocked the exact causes. For example when I'm at Arsenal games I'll always have a couple of glasses of wine at half time, and usually feel a bit buzzed from them - drinking the same while in a restaurant, or at home, wouldn't do anything. Presumably there's a pattern of my behaviour before/during these games that makes it happen.
I really didn't intend to say drinking or not drinking was right/wrong for everybody... just trying to tell my story and what I've found worked well for me.
I would love to know what the beer/whisky/wine brought to your time with your friends, it it wasn't for getting drunk/buzzed? Honestly curious.
Do you only appreciate a nice steak frites because it makes you full?
You seem to think that it's impossible to genuinely appreciate the flavour of alcoholic drinks and to have interest in drinking the many kinds for the variety of interesting flavours.
Why should I avoid certain drinks simply because they have alcohol in them? Can you explain?
I liked your post and it didn't come across to me that you were trying to convince anyone else to do anything. Seemed more like you were just sharing your own personal experiences and realizations.
Regarding the first paragraph - it brings taste. Same reason we eat nice food rather than the cheapest most nutritional food we can find. It's not alcohol for the sake of alcohol, if I had a bottle of vodka at home I wouldn't bother drinking it. Come to think of it, I think I actually do have a bottle of vodka somewhere in a draw in my bedroom... it's there because I haven't ever wanted to get drunk at home since I was given it 9 months ago.
Whisky in particular I can't get enough of (in the hyperbolic way, not the "I literally drink as much as I can" way!) - I forgot to include, when looking around the room, that I have ~15 30ml bottle samples of various whiskies that I haven't tried, which I regularly add to and try. After trying them I might add it to my mental list of real bottles to buy in the future... often won't.
Except to me the taste is absolutely vile. I don't drink any alcohol whatsoever simply because it dislike the taste. Even a whiff is enough to turn me off.
I don't have any objections to others drinking (within safe limits), but really hate the notion (fortunately not widespread among my friends) that if you're not drinking alcohol in a social setting you're somehow weird or even spoiling everyone's fun.
A colleague and friend of mine who used to love drinking is unable to now for medical reasons, and while I've always felt sad that he can't do what he used to enjoy, I've never felt that his not drinking has been anything like a problem for anyone other than him.
That said, I can see that there is some logic for some people. It's very possible for drinkers and non-drinkers to enjoy each other's company while drinking and not drinking, but for some people, if they feel this way, there's no reason it shouldn't be like any other activity. I'm a big fan of sports, for example English football, I don't mind that plenty of my friends are completely indifferent, they don't mind that I love it. I'd never expect them to come and watch a game with me, or even watch on TV. So I wouldn't have a problem with people thinking the same thing about "getting drunk" instead of "watching football".
Similar views here. For me it's beer - I've just never, ever liked the taste of beer. I think I've have 3 beers in my entire life, generally as the result of awkwardly forced social situations where it was easier to have a few sips than to make a bigger issue out of it than I wanted to.
Wine? A glass now or then with a particular meal, it's OK. Spirits? Some vodka with OJ can give me a small buzz which, in some ways, can be relaxing for a while. These are the '1-2x a year' sorts of drinks, but never really for the taste of it.
But... beer. Of any sort. I've just never understood the fascination with it. It all tastes gross. It's probably saved me a small fortune compared to some of my friends over the years, and I'm sure I'm (a bit) healthier because of it, although I still eat junk food, so it's not all unicorns and rainbows on that score :)
I think I've have 3 beers in my entire life.... I've just never understood the fascination with it. It all tastes gross
That's a rather strong conclusion to draw from having tasted at most three different beers (and I wonder if they were all that different... situations where people typically feel pressured to drink aren't known for the high quality of the beer on hand).
I've exaggerated a bit - I've had sips of more than 3 beers in my life. I've had tastes of lagers in the UK, a couple German beers, and a few others over time - a swig here and there, etc. 3 was basically full (or near full). There's just nothing appealing at all with any of the types (closest I could probably do would be a cider, which isn't really a beer though, right?).
This feels like a no true scotsman issue. "Well, if you'd had good beer, you'd feel differently!". :) I've had tastes of beer where people said "this is the best stuff here". It's still ... ugh. Can't deal with the taste.
If my life depended on it, I probably could do it, but thankfully I've never been in that situation :)
I've exaggerated a bit - I've had sips of more than 3 beers in my life. I've had tastes of lagers in the UK, a couple German beers, and a few others over time - a swig here and there, etc. 3 was basically full (or near full). There's just nothing appealing at all with any of the types (closest I could probably do would be a cider, which isn't really a beer though, right?).
If that's your experience, I'm fine listing you as "doesn't like beer."
I couldn't get used to the taste of beer for something like two years since I started drinking alcohol. At first I hated it, now I just tolerate it. I still don't really like it, but I don't have problem with drinking it in social situations anymore.
[quote]I still don't really like it, but I don't have problem with drinking it in social situations anymore.[/quote]
I think the author wanted to express precisely that point you implies: in social situation people who doesn't want to drink is used to fell forced from others' thought (or from circumstances) to drink.
None will say that aloud, because everybody knows that it is some sort of social rule, like wearing robes (you should truly put those pants up, Mike), and it's embarrassing for both sides pointing out the anti-social move.
Thinking that those who won't drink would be boring or spoil the party(<--classic excuses) to the good guys, who simply follow society rule like "ought to drink in meeting", is a really spread notion, in which even I found myself.
p.s.
a less idiot excuse imho is that, when you drink with others, there is a mutual and tacit agreement to "relax" social boundaries, to be more natural, to not feel constantly judged ("Come on! I was drunk! I really didn't meant that"<<classic). But when there is one who won't agree putting on this kind of "shelter" or "mask" (not to spoil social relaxation but because he can't sustain the shelter itself), everyone feels embarrassed because you are not sure that this kind of social outcast is going to respect or not the tacit agreement without the ritual drinks.
I hope I've been comprehensible.
It probably isn't the alcohol, then. If it's the beer you find unreasonably offensive, it may be that you are a supertaster. I am one, and I've had the same experience you describe: enjoying wine and spirits, but unable to form any sort of friendship with beer.
I actually react most strongly to spinach -- once as a child, I gagged on a perfectly good spinach leaf and threw up in my napkin right in the middle of a restaurant on best behavior! But I also definitely have the sense that what I taste when I sample coffee and beer cannot possibly be what other people are tasting.
Wow. Never heard that term. I was always just a "picky eater" as a kid.
Spinach and some other veggies - I'm fine with almost everything raw. Can't stand it cooked. Yet people complain about that. WTF? I'm asking you to NOT do any food prep - no energy to cook/heat it up - there's no wasted effort, and it's good for you. I'd still get push back from family over the years as a "picky eater".
My brother got us a juicer, and I'm juicing up loads of carrots, spinach, celery, beans, greens (collard/turnip), etc. Yeah, that definitely doesn't taste awesome, but in some ways, because of the mix, it doesn't taste strongly of anyone type of food - they sort of cancel each other out a bit. It's not a great taste, but doable, and it's healthy.
Coffee - that took a while to be an acquired taste. Why do this but not beer? A) cheaper. B) caffeine kick is more useful to my daily life. I'm not a coffee addict - 2-3 per week is a lot - but generally cheaper to add on to a breakfast meal than a beer is with a dinner. I prefer flavored coffees/mochas/etc, but coffee with enough cream/sugar is workable.
Man, I wish I could take you to some beer bars so we could see if you really hate beer, or if you've just had bad ones. A friend of mine was positive that she hated beer; then I introduced her to gueuze and now it's gotten to the point that she's planning a trip to Belgium to drink more of it. By chance did all three of the ones you've tasted have Bud, Miller, or Coors anywhere in the name?
Nope. As i wrote above, I've actually had more than 3 when counting small samples/swigs over the years ("here, try some of this"). Had UK lagers and ales, ciders (closest to something I could actually have more of), a couple types of german beers, a couple of 'micro brew' things from breweries local to wherever I was living at the time, etc.
Just... ugh. Can't do it. And honestly, if it was a case of "just try XYZ a few more times"... I'm not sure if I want to get accustomed to something that's $6/ bottle, which would end up adding $12-$20 per meal I go out for. I'd rather be able to leave a large tip if I've enjoyed the meal than pay for expensive bottles of 'the good stuff'.
I most social situations, I'm driving anyway, so it's always easier to bow out and grab a ginger ale or something, if I'm heading to the car in an hour.
When I'm not driving someplace (hotel for a conference, etc), it's tastier to get a fuzzy navel or some other fruity drink with some alcohol in it :)
It sounds like it is really a flavor thing for you, and that sounds awesome. You've found something you really enjoy and are able to share that with others.
You're aware that there's an entire profession based around the taste of wine, right? And that wine prices are based on their taste not their alcohol content? I don't understand how it's possible to be incredulous about people liking the taste of alcohol. I think most people like the taste of alcohol. Certainly haute cuisine is about taste. There's no section in Escoffier about getting shwasted.
"And that wine prices are based on their taste not their alcohol content?"
If wine prices were determined by taste then the most expensive wines in the world would be Oregon pinos, Rioja tempranillos, albarinos, etc. But in fact most of these wines are dirt cheap. The things that determine the price of wine are mostly the brand of the wine itself and the brand of the region it comes from. Taste plays only a very small role in pricing. And the alcohol content actually significantly effects how people perceive the taste, because when people are tasting a dozen plus wines in a sitting they tend to prefer the ones with higher alcohol content because they stand out more as they lose their taste perception, even if these wines wouldn't be that good on their own.
If the mere presence of alcohol improves the perceived taste, then it does tastes better. Only actual intoxication could properly be said to corrupt results, since ethanol is a legitimate source of flavor.
That's not correct. The alcohol makes you think the wine tastes better when you are comparing it with lots of other wines at the same time, because it makes it 'pop' more. But if you actually drink that wine on its own, the way one normally drinks wine, then it wouldn't necessarily be your favorite.
They appreciate the taste of the various beverages, not the alcohol (although, to be clear, the alcohol does contribute to the various flavors). Very few people drink alcohol, rather they drink things that happen to contain alcohol.
You might be thinking that I'm being pedantic right now, but having a firm grasp on this concept is important if you wish to understand why people drink what they drink.
Consider how silly it would sound if we talked that way about baking soda.
But the rest of my comment - yeah, I still enjoy the flavour when getting drunk, but even if I didn't care for the taste I'd still enjoy drinking on a night out.
edit: The only argument I would make against getting drunk, in my case, is that when doing it I'm obviously not taking the healthiest path. But I strongly suspect my food and nicotine habits are much bigger problems in the long-term.
While I'm glad that someone found that total sobriety is the best for them, I found parts of this to be a bit distasteful. The times in my life when I overdid it a bit (or a lot) with the drinking, the next day I found myself thinking "wow, I acted like such an idiot last night", not "I could have acted like the same idiot without alcohol".
If I'm at a bachelor party making gay jokes ("no homo"), the amount of alcohol I've consumed is somewhat irrelevant.
What parts did you find distasteful? I was conscious when writing this to keep an air of mtv beachhouse / jersey shore tone in it... That's the kind of partying that has been glamorized and what a lot of people seek out on the weekend.
I definitely don't suggest people act like idiots. I was simply trying to relate to the people that are probably overdoing it the most.
To me, you came across as somewhat of an evangelist. You showed us how much better off you are because you no longer drink, and for all those reasons, everyone else should also stop drinking.
It's certainly possible to have fun while being sober, in fact I think that's how most people have their fun. The fun they experience while drunk is a different type of fun.
For example, your friends are holding beers in the pictures of your partying experiences. You got to experience their drunk fun. If everyone was sober, you may have had a different type of fun. Skinny dipping, for example, is probably a choice made most often when you're not sober. My point is that a lot of the sober fun you experienced, you have your drunk friends to thank for.
"No homo" isn't really making fun of gay people... it's more making fun of people who are homophobes. No offense intended to gay people. Some of the people I love and respect most in this world are.
Ok, so thinking that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality... and only having seen no homo used in a context that was making fun of homophobes... I used that text on an image, but can now understand how that it can be offensive. I changed it.
To be clear, this isn't some White Knight thing, or a gotcha trying to call you out. I think you deserve the chance to get feedback that your words carry an apparently unintended meaning.
See, and I agree with OP on this. The only times I've ever said "no homo" with my friends were in a good natured, making fun of ourselves sort of way. None of my friends are homphobic; we've gone skinny dipping, had wrestling matches with naught but boxers, and it's all fun and games. Maybe there are those frat types for whom any expression of male bonding must be prefaced by "no homo" lest they feel their manhood challenged, but it just hasn't been my experience. It's always said as a way to crack a joke, usually at ourselves, rather than to distance ourselves from some perceived homoerotic threat.
I'm really surprised at the level of hostility in these comments. I read this not as a preachy, "do this or waste your life" type post, but as a reflection of one man's experience and the very positive outcome that this lifestyle change had.
Maybe it's not relevant for some people - if you're not the kind of person who parties and gets drunk regularly (where regularity is obviously subjective) then clearly his experience may well be irrelevant. On the other hand, if you are, maybe you can try it - maybe it won't work for you and maybe it will.
When I read the post I didn't get a very sanctimonious feeling out of it.
But quotes like these are not at all defusing the hostility:
> "Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the bottle."
You've gone from "here's a great idea" to "if you're not doing it my way you're on a slippery slope to hell", and I think that's the tone people are objecting to.
I did generalize there, and in my head I was speaking to the original audience of the post which is people who like to party... and to that audience I think those words hold truer. There are obviously a lot of connoisseurs of wine & drink here who took my words directed at their casual consumption.
And definitely wasn't trying to suggest that not drinking was a slippery slope to hell.
It seems to me that with each caveat your target audience just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
Take me for example - I might be your stereotypical partier. My default Saturdays are at the club and I hit up bars often - but I'm very rarely drunk, and in fact I'm stone sober nearly all of the time. The people I go with are also the same. We get up to crazy shenanigans regardless of how much alcohol is in (or not in) us.
The problem with your thinking here is that you assume everyone in the club is like you, but the truth of the matter is that most of us leave our binge-drinking-plastered-constantly days behind us fairly soon after college.
There is certainly an audience for your post - people with addictive personalities who can't achieve that (very, very wide) middle ground on alcohol consumption. And power to you and them. But you started out addressing to all alcohol consumers. Then you took a step back and addressed this to just "partiers". And now you must take one more step back and realize that you're really addressing a subset of partiers at that.
Hmmm. Well, my strong negative reaction to it started with the last three words in the title.
Note how different "I haven’t been drunk in 3 years... and I’ve been partying way more than you" comes across, when compared to something like "I haven’t been drunk in 3 years… and I’ve been partying a ton!"
As soon as you mention "more than you", you're making a direct comparison of your behavior to your readers' behavior, and that not only comes across as judgmental, it invites criticism from anyone who behaves differently and prefers it. (Like, for instance, me - I enjoy a quality beer or wine, but for me your social life, drunk or sober, would be the ninth circle of hell.)
Its a bit of a strange state of affairs when a sober person announces that fact to people who drink. There's actually a great cracked article that explores this dynamic (I'll post this and then edit with the link if I can find it). When someone who drinks is told by someone who doesn't that they don't drink, they have a hard time not perceiving it as dig against them for drinking, or a 'holier than thou' kind of statement.
Given the prevalence of drinking in society, its easier to explore the concept in regard to marijuana. I can't even count the number of times I've said something along the lines of "you've never smoked? come smoke a bowl?". When the culture you're a part of has the idea that everyone is going to do it some time, with some sort of frequency (be it very very low or every night) hearing people against it completely is is a bit... odd to deal with. Its like finding out the person you're hanging with has completely opposite political views as you. Even if you're both OK with it and want to move onto a new topic of discussion, its awkward.
I found the post more of a great philosophy of a life approach -- even outside the "sober vs not" theme. Sometimes hostility from others who are not sober can come from the turn of an introspective eye (conscious or subconscious) to themselves. Meaning, seeing someone else sober, can make one question their own lack of sobriety, even if no chronic problem exists (alcoholism, etc.) Some cog. therapy stuffs. Found it in myself (inebriated) and with friends / others (when I am sober). Its interesting to see the reactions or non-reaction when one "thinks" you are intoxicated, when not, and those same people in a different setting knowing you are Not intoxicated.
A couple of years ago, I spent Thanksgiving with a friend and the first thing he warned was, "My family does not drink alcohol!". Interesting... I am accustomed to intoxicated family parties, but on that specific Thanksgiving, 20 of us drank tea and ate turkey. It was pleasant.
After dinner, his father (a Doctor, along with 80% of the family) shared his views about alcohol, predicting that in one generation alcohol will be socially rejected the way tobacco is today because of how utterly destructive alcohol is to the human body.
Remember! Just 50 years ago, the majority of the United States had no problem with cigarettes.
I still drink, along with almost every adult I know, though I cannot help but think that my friend's dad is right.
>After dinner, his father (a Doctor, along with 80% of the family) shared his views about alcohol, predicting that in one generation alcohol will be socially rejected the way tobacco is today because of how utterly destructive alcohol is to the human body.
I think this has a likelihood approaching nil.
The consumption of alcohol is literally as old as human civilization; humans first stumbled upon fermenting grains into ale around the time humans first began farming.
There would have to be some sort of ground breaking discovery to attach the same sort of health stigma to alcohol as tobacco. Right now, the research is extremely mixed. The continual debate over possible health benefits of wine would be one indicator. The fact that data indicates that complete abstainers generally live shorter lives than those who drink would be another.[1]
>Remember! Just 50 years ago, the majority of the United States had no problem with cigarettes.
Remember! Less than 100 years ago, the anti-alcohol movement in the United States was strong enough to put Prohibition into place.
And what's interesting about that is that it illuminates another key place where I think the idea that alcohol will suddenly become socially unacceptable is completely off the mark. We've consumed alcohol for thousands of years, and we've been fairly aware of its destructive effects for nearly as long because alcohol is more immediately destructive than tobacco.
One of the biggest drivers of the temperance movement in the late 19th and early 20th century were women. In the time predating modern social safety nets and women's liberation movements, a woman with a drunk for a husband would end up with mouths to feed and very few options for making an income.
Yet prohibition was a disaster on a grand scale because society at large rejected it. It would take a major sea change for things to be any different today or in 50 years.
Alcohol's been around for millenia because for millenia, humans could not reliably find safe water sources. All sorts of microbes like to grow in water; if it weren't for the cellular poison known as ethanol, you'd probably be drinking giardia, cholera, E.coli, and all sorts of other microbes along with your water.
It was only the development of municipal water chlorination that made alcohol unnecessary. That didn't start getting widespread adoption until the 1930s (two generations ago), and wasn't legislated until 1972 (one generation ago). So it's certainly conceivable that within one generation, alcohol will go the way of tobacco.
Prohibition was rejected because it was forced upon people, but I could see people start to "naturally" reject alcohol as they have tobacco. Drinking and driving used to be the normal thing to do, now you are an evil, evil person for even considering it. The straight up consumption of alcohol could easily go the same way.
The difference is that we have clear evidence that tobacco is vastly harmful to your health in the long term. Alcohol? Not so much.
Pretty much everyone agrees that it's bad to be an alcoholic. Most people get annoyed with people that routinely get sloppy, out of control drunk. That's already socially unacceptable.
The general consumption of alcohol becoming an outright social faux pas, though? I just don't see it happening any time in our lifetimes.
A couple of cigarettes each year is not going to increase your chances of health problems any more than a couple of drinks. Yet, we look down upon the people who even try a cigarette just once.
And what about drinking and driving? One drink is legally okay in most jurisdictions, and generally considered to still be safe, but it is often taboo to even do that these days. Zero tolerance is a strong meme in that area.
And those attitudes are not necessarily bad, but it takes what does cause harm in excess and applies the same logic to moderation. I'm just not certain alcohol is immune to those same social pressures.
>Slavery, Torture as a judical tool and blood feuds are also literally as old as human civilization and yet have recently fallen out of favor.
Those things all fell out of favor because they inflict direct harm upon others, not because of their long-term health effects to the individual.
And as I noted, the temperance movement was largely driven by the harm inflicted upon by alcoholics on their families, which resulted in impoverishing women (largely because women weren't viewed as fully autonomous at the time, something else that's socially fallen out of favor).
>As for mixed research results - no surprise when there's a huge industry and status quo bias funding one side of it.
Ah, yes. Occam would clearly dictate that conflicting scientific data is best explained by vast, shadowy conspiracy.
It's neither shadowy nor really a conspiracy - but do you really want to deny that the results of research are often biased in favor of the organization funding it, and that the various alcohol-producing and -distributing industries have a lot of PR money between them?
"conflicting scientific data" does not by itself mean there isn't overwhelming evidence for one position - although that's of course exactly what those whose livelihood depends on that evidence being ignored want people to believe, in so many areas - be it the effects of alcohol, the existence of global warming, or the efficacy of homeopathy.
What counts is the quality of the actual science, size and rigor of studies, etc. And yes, I'm too lazy to go into that level of detail here.
There are plenty of studies that show alcohol is good for people in moderation, unlike smoking. Your friends father's views on alcohol will not happen. Prohibition was a massive failure in the U.S.
Even heavy drinkers outlive those who abstain. Let that sink in.
The big issue with drinking isn't what happens to one's body, but rather what drinking causes some to do -- drunk driving, rape, assaults, etc. The biggest scourge from drinking is that it causes some people to do terrible things. And while heavy drinking can cause issues with one's body, that pales in comparison to what a drunk can do to others.
> The sample of those who were studied included individuals between ages 55 and 65 who had had any kind of outpatient care in the previous three years.
So they sampled a conveniently sick group of elderly men and then "controlled" for all the things that make them elderly men and that showed that the heavy drinkers lived 2nd longest (not the longest)?
I suspect that they probably had to cook their statistics in order to support their hypothesis. You find that when they have to "control for everything", instead of finding research subjects that they can actually randomize and properly control. They probably had so many variables controlled that it was just bound to fit whatever model they came up with.
Big, big difference. If someone gets drunk at the same table as me they aren't doing me any harm, as long as they don't attack me, or drive me anywhere - that's a long way from sitting next to someone puffing away on a cigarette...
There have also been many studies that show that the idea that alcohol makes you agressive or dangerous are, to a large part, placebos (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3035442.stm). It seems that when people behave like dicks "due to alcohol", they're probably using the alcohol as an excuse just to behave like a dick. Getting rid of alcohol would likely force something else to be the socially-acceptable reason for being a dick - "The devil made me do it!"
The link you provided does not say what you say it does.
Further, I find it hard to believe that the placebo effect is stronger than the well-documented effects of alcohol in impairing judgment, impairing the frontal lobe and motor skills, creating long-term changes to the reward circuits in the brain, and by lowering inhibitions on all forms of ill-advised behavior, which includes aggressive behavior.
I was originally looking to link to something less like a lab report, but you can see the original studies here, and in the references associated.
Basically, the more impaired you expect to be, the more impaired you become. So, if you expect alcohol to make you violent then you will behave more violently under the influence. Of course, one would question why, if you expect alcohol to make you violent, you would drink at all - other than to use it as an excuse to behave like a dick.
Alcohol will affect your reaction time and your motor co-ordination. It makes you feel awful the next day as the liver is taxed by removing the poisons from your system. It's an addictive substance and is associated with a myriad of substance abuse problems.
Whilst it is true that alcohol will have an effect on your body chemistry, it does not make you violent, it does not make you behave badly or aggressively. Those behaviours come from within you. Alcohol is not an excuse for behaving like a dick; it may, however, be something that you accept as an excuse for letting out the dickish behaviour you wish to display.
I don't know of any scientific studies that show that alcohol lowers inhibitions, but the above studies (and the references in their bibliographies) show that people will lower their inhibitions when they think they are consuming alcohol, regardless of the alcohol content of the drink.
You're right that alcohol doesn't transform a normal person into an aggressive person, but it does lower inhibitions to otherwise anti-social or ill-advised behavior.
Light alcohol consumption has been shown to have a beneficial effect on health. I'm not sure where this doctor is getting his information from, but in terms of stress relief, a couple alcoholic beverages a week does not appear to be utterly distructive to the human body.
>predicting that in one generation alcohol will be socially rejected the way tobacco is today because of how utterly destructive alcohol is to the human body.
He's not the only doctor to think that way. "Alcohol is the most dangerous drug in the UK by a considerable margin, beating heroin and crack cocaine into second and third place, according to an authoritative study published today which will reopen calls for the drugs classification system to be scrapped and a concerted campaign launched against drink." http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-h...
yeah, because 500 years ago we were also smoking and only figured now that it was really terrible.
on the other hand, 500 years ago we were also drinking and we've still no clue how alcohol is!
oh uhm, actually it appears we do with great details. Damn.
Maybe in some Protestant circles, but in many parts and communities of the country, that was never the case. Catholics, Jews, Germans and some other immigrants 100 years ago were very much into drinking, as it is part of their culture.
I know plenty of people who smoke pot. Despite this fact, in light of national legislation against it, I don't consider it to qualify it as "socially acceptable".
Anyway, the point is that alcohol has waxed and waned in popularity. For every article I read about binge drinking related problems, I read another about the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption. I expect our current trend of binge drinking to fade, for awhile, but I certainly don't see alcohol consumption in general going away, ever.
In the UK I'd say that in lots of non-smoking circles, weed is indeed fairly socially acceptable. Not universal, maybe not even for the majority of people (I've no idea how the figures add up).
But for my company, as an example, if I walked into the office on Monday and said "I had a great weekend, was permanently stoned" (not true!), my CEO would be very critical - to what extent I don't know - but he's already critical of my smoking (he attempted to bribe me to quit with a new coffee machine for the office, which almost tempted me), the rest of my colleagues would have no problem with it, so long as I never did it immediately before or during work. Not only with people who don't smoke weed (possibly everyone in our company I believe) but those who don't smoke cigarettes, too.
Certainly in my peer group of 3rd and 4th year university students, weed is entirely accepted. (Perhaps a distorted view...) I don't personally smoke weed, but people will have no qualms about talking about it and I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything more than "I don't do that" about it.
I did this for four months. (Started drinking again around new years because it seemed highly appropriate)
I definitely got the "Wow, you've been sober for 4 months?!? But we partied so hard last friday!" thing a lot. When people are drunk, they really don't notice you not being drunk..
I agree with most of the article, and will probably go back on the wagon again soon. But he left out some of the negative stuff...
For example.. How grating it gets when your friends get so drunk that they start to repeat themselves... Over and over again.. And how hard it can be to get a point across to someone who's drunk when you're sober. Making conversations, at times, highly frustrating.
When I'm drunk I'm just as stupid and the conversations run smoothly!
Those are definite negatives to hanging out with drunk people. But, they don't really go away just because you're drunk, too. People are still bad at conversation, you just start to not notice. If your primary intent is just to be sociable, that probably solves the problem, but if your intent is to actually talk about something, it's just avoidance.
My preferred solution is to hang out with other people who are also not drunk, but still intent on partying. My freshman year of college developed a saying that I really should've started using in high school: "The Best Things in Life Happen When You Could Be Mistaken for Drunk, But Aren't."
Having good conversations doesn't necesarilly have anything to do with having structured well thought out dialogue.
"Clicking" with someone, and having a great time incoherently talking about dumb stuff while laughing, can be just as fulfilling (but in a different way) than an intelligent enlightening discussion.
Sure, you don't need alcohol to talk about dumb stuff with someone you're level with. But I find that alcohol severely expands the demographic of people I can get that kind of interaction going with
Good for him but not sure why he feels the need to push his zero-alcohol policy on others. I'd guess more people drink for other reasons than to "get drunk" but I guess this was his only reason.
As his co-founder, I can assure you he doesn't push his "policy" on anyone else. Far from it. It's more a philosophy of being present for every moment, and living life to the fullest.
And pretty sure he was the one that bought a bottle of champagne for our team to celebrate the end of our adventure through YC...just he didn't drink any.
It's more a philosophy of being present for every moment, and living life to the fullest.
Interesting that you equate living life to the fullest with not drinking. Drinking a great beer with some friends or having a nice glass of cab with a big steak is high on my list of things to do while living life to the fullest.
Didn't think I was being pushy... just suggesting an alternative. And I would say for most people drinking is for the purposes of getting drunk / buzzed. All I'm suggesting is that people take on the challenge of trying to achieve that state of mind that getting buzzed gets you, when sober. Be able to find that place where you're more carefree, relaxed and fun... so you can find it anytime and then be it all the time.
For college students I think that's true, but I wouldn't say for most people alcohol consumption is mainly for getting drunk/buzzed. Most people are somewhere between 0 drinks and "bottle of wine", along the lines of "a beer or two while watching a football game" or "a glass of wine or two with dinner".
I mean I guess you could drink soft drinks with dinner, but to me that's a weird unnatural thing to do (super-sweet, and doesn't fit well either taste- or culture-wise with traditional European cuisine). Water is ok, and I do drink that sometimes.
I've done this a couple of times and it isn't helpful for the discussion, but in my head I was picturing a certain kind of people... those who are going out to bars / clubs regularly. Those that are drinking the 3+ drinks. To say most people that drink do that isn't probably true. But most of the people out in bars/clubs "partying" I would say are the people who are going for buzzed/drunk. And they don't have to be in college.
And I just drink water at dinner, but that's because I really like water. (some nutritionalists would actually suggest drinking a lot of anything while eating a meal is actually hard on digestion.)
(some nutritionalists would actually suggest drinking a lot of anything while eating a meal is actually hard on digestion.)
Woah, where did you get that? If by a lot you mean drinking whenever you feel thirsty that's definitely not true. If by "a lot" you mean too much, well... obviously. That's why it's called "too much."
There's a reason you often feel thirsty while eating: liquid helps to turn the food you eat into the nutritious slurry which actually can be digested by your body.
Do a literature review. Also, stop listening to nutritionists: many of them don't even have degrees in medicine.
It's the "I've been partying way more than you" part of your title in conjunction with the alternates that makes you come off as pushy or at the very least sanctimonious.
I was trying to reach an audience that cares a lot how much they party... So to the average casual drinker it probably does come across a bit douchey. No judgement intended for anybody who drinks.
I'm not sure I follow the author's reasoning. It's also possible to have a great time without consuming meat, without having sex or even without including friends in the activity. So what?
If you drink alcohol to get buzzed/drunk in order to be more relaxed/social/happy, etc. All I'm suggesting is that it might be possible for you to achieve that without drinking... and then you can access that place any time you want.
If you enjoy drinking and don't need it for the above. Awesome for you.
Most people who stop drinking do it for either health reasons (allergic, acid reflux, etc.) or because they are an alcoholic. He doesn't fully explain why he stopped drinking, and I'm wonder if it is because he had issues with drinking.
I do want to add before I write more that if you don't enjoy drinking, don't do it. Just because other people are doing it that doesn't mean you should. I know some people who don't actually enjoy alcohol, but they still feel like it's the thing to do socially. If you enjoy not drinking, rock it.
If you're out of your early 20s and you're still getting drunk regularly, you probably have an alcohol problem. I'm 27 and haven't been drunk in years. I drink a few times a week and usually only have a drink or two. I might have three-ish tomorrow because of the big game.
It's fine if you don't want to drink, but there is something missing from his story. Maybe he needed to stop drinking, but many of us can responsibly handle and enjoy alcohol.
I love beer. I love trying different kinds of beer. I love the taste, and I want to discover new kinds.
If you're drinking alcohol just to get drunk that's the issue. Many of us drink beer, wine or mixed drinks because we actually enjoy the drink.
I know I have a few tasty microbrews lined up for tomorrow.
Never had issues. I thought I explained in the post that I did it as a challenge to not need the "liquid courage" to do all the fun stuff when partying with friends. I guess that is an issue, but would be a confidence issue... not an alcohol one.
I have plenty of friends who drink socially, have been drunk every so often and are in their 30s. I don't think any of them have drinking problems.
You mention a couple times that there is something missing from the story but I wonder if you read the post? My story explains that I did it as a challenge. To not need the social support of drinking, so I can experience a party at any time... without alcohol.
My point was not to say alcohol is bad for everybody or that if you drink you have a problem... again, I was speaking about people "partying" ie drinking 4+ drinks. If you drink in moderation or have a glass of wine here or there, then the post wasn't addressing your lifestyle.
I'm not sure. I've started taking a break from alcohol recently, and while I'm not sure I'll do it forever I am loving the side-effects like more disposable income, general feeling of healthiness after a night out and such. There's lot s of reasons to consider stopping drinking other than serious health issues or alcoholism.
And this is coming from someone who really enjoys good whiskey and local ale, so I really do miss the taste.
It's a joke but like with many jokes the bigger the grain of truth the better. Another classic is "Having fun without alcohol is pretense." These are typically said when, for example, planning an evening out with friends or gathering at someone's place and the question of "Ok, shall we drink something, too, then?" comes up.
More often than not the collective conclusion is that of why not have a few beers since we're going to have some fun time anyway--probably motivated by the fear of not actually having fun without those beers. And then inevitably some of the participants stretch the meaning of "few" and you can witness something like this act by a Swedish guy who captures something of the essence of Finnish drunkenness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAl9OyGYxOg
Note that we can't generalize from this. Many Finnish people are decent with regard to the consumption of alcohol and many citizens of numerous other countries often drink too much. But there is a certain difference between Finland and many nations. What is common in Finland—or first frowned upon but immediately dismissed as "I'll do it too"—is generally considered a very undesirable way to embarrass yourself in many other countries.
You obviously haven't been to Finland, have you? Finnish males communicate by grunts and don't express emotions when sober. When drunk, they communicate by brawls and express emotions in streams of vomit.
Seriously, spend a night in Helsinki sometimes, it's an eye-opener.
Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the bottle. A glass of wine is something I may add back in like 20-30 years, but honestly I don't miss it that much. You're either alone and should just find a way to be in that happy, light place without the wine... or it's a social thing and you can find another delicious drink to socialize with. (hot cocoa, coconut-lime soda, etc.)
And the buddhist in my fully appreciates a moderation / middle way approach... But what is that glass of wine getting you? Is it strictly a taste thing? Is it the antioxidants? My guess is there are comparable things that would be you those same positive results of a glass of wine.
My guess is there are comparable things that would be you those same positive results of a glass of wine.
That seems to be begging the question, if I'm using that term correctly. You're starting from the premise that the glass of wine has significant deleterious effects, and thus should readily be avoided if other goods can replace it. I'm not sure I personally agree with that premise.
Wow. Do you really feel like I'm forcing my choice on you? I wrote a blog post sharing my experience. 3 years I've enjoyed fully. Maybe you don't need to do it the way I've done it and can make every moment of your life a party with or without alcohol.
And I'm fully capable of regulating my drink. What I'm getting at is finding other ways to find the mental benefits drinking provides, ie, being able to have the confidence / happiness being buzzed/drunk provides... without needing the alcohol.
> Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the bottle.
A date with one girl turns into two, and then you're hiring infected hookers.
A piece of cake turns into two, and then you've eaten the entire cake and then you get diabetes.
Five miles over the speed limit turns into ten, and then you're arrested for going 50 over the speed limit.
If you don't like alcohol, and find it hard to only have one drink, and decide to not drink at all, that's great! I'm glad you found something that works for you. But your comments strongly imply that your experience is everyone else's experience, and that we're just in denial about it.
Well, you did say, "Like with most things it's easy to slide down a slippery slope. One glass of wine turns into two and then you've polished off the rest of the bottle," as if you automatically assume others can't control their drinking.
As for the "confidence/happiness" that drinking brings, I wonder if you're not projecting again. Personally, drinking doesn't make me any more confident. It doesn't make me happy in and of itself, though it can help to reduce stress. And there you're talking about "needing the alcohol," as if appreciating the effects of something is "needing" it...
I wrote the post for people that use drinking as a way to enjoy an experience more. Those are the kind of people who often slide down that slope. I recognize that a lot of people don't have any issues with this slope. Sorry for sliding you down it.
I wrote the post for people that use drinking as a way to enjoy an experience more. Those are the kind of people who often slide down that slope.
And I think that's completely a false assumption to make about people. I myself might drink because I enjoy the element that the feeling of warmth and relaxation adds to a conversation with friends. So, I may be using it to enjoy an experience 'more' but that has nothing to do with sliding down a slope. Friends and I may sometimes enjoy drinking as the social setting, the activity for the night. The actual entertainment comes not from the drinking itself, but from the social interaction and camaraderie. It's a shared experience, and that's what human interaction is largely about.
It sounds like you're trying to address an audience of unaware alcoholics. Or extremely dull people who rely exclusively on drinking as sole entertainment.
For most people one glass of wine doesn't turn into a bottle. That's called a problem.
I enjoy having a glass of wine while I'm reading. It's relaxing and goes well with reading. Sometimes I have a glass of wine, take a bath and read. One day when you drink wine again you should try it.
Exactly. I guess some people just don't understand that there's a big difference between boasting about how many shots of vodka you had last night and chilling with a beer or two.
True. Everybody who drinks a glass of wine into doesn't have a drinking problem.
Really, what I was hoping to suggest and perhaps have done a poor job of, was encouraging people to try and find those things that they get from alcohol without it. ie, Could you find a way to relax for your reading without a glass of wine? If you could find that place without anything external, but thoughts are that would be a pretty great skill to have all the time.
I usually don't drink while I read, but I do enjoy drinking while I read. Usually one beer or one glass of wine. I usually drink tea while I read.
I do agree that if you can't enjoy something unless you're drinking, that's an issue. If I had to drink every time I read a book, I would have to do some soul searching. And you're right, if you can only party when you're drunk, are you really partying?
If I enjoy wine, why should I substitute it for something else? I don't get what is so inherently evil about alcohol that I need to find an alternative immediately or why it would be beneficial for me to find an alternative.
This was partially in response to this:
"And the buddhist in my fully appreciates a moderation / middle way approach...But what is that glass of wine getting you? Is it strictly a taste thing? Is it the antioxidants? My guess is there are comparable things that would be you those same positive results of a glass of wine."
Ok..from my anecdotal evidence as much i like red wine, i don't like what seems to do to my liver. (am not referring to study but the feeling of nausea/acidity it causes). I have found that grape juice is a good source of antioxidants..
"I meant the positive aspects of wine ... Not any of the buzz/drunk happiness benefits"
If I may be so blunt, you honestly are now sounding like some Mormon friends I know who have never drank, but for some reason feel particularly qualified to speak on the matter.
I get the point of the post. But come on, we're adults. Drinking is a choice. For some people, if having a drink makes them more social and they enjoy it, more power to them. If people choose to be sober and it works for them in their social life, hey, good for them too.
Yes alcohol can be abused. But just because you choose to get shitfaced doesn't mean you don't know how to have fun the "real" way. It also doesn't mean you're an alcoholic. And just because you don't drink, doesn't mean you're the outcast.
Your post would have been a lot more meaningful if you neglected the part about the alcohol altogether. I think what's inspiring is that you chose to go down a different path and it led to amazing things in your life. Drinking is irrelevant and takes away from the good message you try to convey.
I quit drinking Jan 1st, and commented about that on Facebook. A friend messaged me and told me she'd done just the same, but was explicitly not telling people to avoid judgemental comments. Judgemental comments? lolwhut?
But any time recently people have seen I don't drink, everyone has an opinion. And 90% of those opinions are long-winded justifications on why it's ok the other person drinks.
Drinking in moderation won't kill you. Very occasionally people suggest that there are even medicinal purposes. But: life gets better without alcohol. I went out for my birthday party last night, and we had an awesome night of drunk karaoke, only, I wasn't drinking. I had a load of fun, sang like an idiot in to the microphone with my friends, and got home safe, having spent almost no cash.
Giving up drinking for me was like giving up smoking before it: I really realized I could just no longer justify doing it. Ever. It's a literal poison, and the idea that you can't bond, have fun, and have crazy nights without it is all bullshit.
I don't know if it's a Finnish tradition only, but a lot of people (around 14% of population in 2010) stop drinking for the month of January. For some it's a way of giving a break for their livers, and some want to see if they are still able to completely stop drinking.
The good thing is having one month per year where it's almost socially acceptable to not drink any alcohol. Of course everyone could just drink moderately all year, but that doesn't seem to happen.
> the idea that you can't bond, have fun, and have crazy nights without it is all bullshit
Right, and I realize that. You're making the same point the OP did. But I'm saying you can bond, have fun, and have crazy nights with alcohol and thats ok too. It's a personal choice either way.
I'm British, I've been crazy drunk 3 times. I don't do that often, I don't really even go clubbing anymore (last time was 6 months ago - in Hungary, gotta go back 10 months for UK clubbing).
I think the drinking culture in the UK is really bad. The French will happily drink a bottle of wine... but with a meal. I definitely drink most people get bored of it pretty quickly. I think it's insane that people get "pissed" weekly. Hangovers are not fun.
However, I have a (mini) fridge just for botted lager, which I dip into when watching football. I have a collection of 8-16year single malt whiskys which I slowly sip of occasionally. I often buy a nice bottle of ale, which goes well with a steak.
No clue why people would continue getting very drunk behond the age of 25. (I'm 21 and mostly bored of it)
This article was very helpful and it encourged me. I'm in my mid twenties and I've never drank gotten drunk (outside of sampling) and always had peers pressuring me to drink. But this article reaffirmed my reasons for not drinking. Conclusion; I don't see how drinking would enhance my life than when I am sober. Thank Bubs!
I like to drink. I love the taste of a good bitter beer. I love trying different kinds of scotch and wiskey. I've had some of the best times just drinking with friends. Everything doesn't have to be a soul searching adventure.
I don't get wild and belligerent when I drink. So there's definitely no need to be that way sober.
I agree completely despite being a frequent recreational user of drugs including alcohol. I was once an extremely shy person who on following friends to social gatherings would ignore girls hitting on me and otherwise avoid interaction. I was very lonely so I sought out drugs as a way to subdue my inhibitions. Misguided though that may have been, ecstasy in particular has helped me gain confidence in social situations (due partly to a placebo effect :). I realized that I should and would be able to be comfortable and have fun while sober if I only tried.
Drugs are fun in moderation (let's not throw the babies out with the bathwater) but only to the extent that they cause fun rather than detracting from it. In my experience for a given drug such a point of inflection always exists.
While of course his 'main idea' is solid; you don't need drugs (alcohol being a particularly addictive and unhealthy one) to have a good time, but saying that he never had “Wow, I’m so glad I did that thing I did last night. It’s significantly improved my life.“ => that's crap, at least, I am not him, but I have had that, so did all my friends. Of course you don't wake up and think 'it's significantly improved my life' (who thinks that??), but certainly 'i am so glad i did that last night'.
When forced to think about that, then yes, it significantly improved my life; I met great friends and girlfriends (which I wouldn't have met in such short period otherwise and at the time that mattered to me), had conversations with friends which were far more honest than we would've had without drink.
One case for instance I was at a very boring party, everyone was ready to go home at 10pm. I was together with my gf and we decided to drink some cocktails and go home too. After feeling a nice buzz, we started dancing alone on the big dance floor with almost no-one around (and surely no-one dancing). Another couple joined in a bit later, we started talking and that guy is now my best friend. This is over a decade ago. This would not have happened if both couples didn't drink; we would've gone home. I know there are people who can 'do this' without alcohol and now my wife and me can too, but back then it was just 'boring party, waste of time, bye' when sober. And I wouldn't like to have missed that for the world; there is almost no chance I would've met him otherwise (I know that in hindsight).
Indeed this has crossed my mind many times... I have blacked out far too often and thought to myself, whats the point if i don't remember anything the next day?
That being said, it's easy to claim that you can be just as fun,charismatic,etc without alcohol, but I have tried before and its really hard. Can you share how you transitioned to being drunk sober?
I tried to outline some of those things in the post... ie, getting your friends on board so they don't make the non-drinking an awkward issue. Drinking something else as a social crutch. Give yourself permission to act a bit silly, just go along with the other people around you.
I'm not saying it's an easy thing. But if you can get to the point where you can be just as fun,happy, charismatic sober... You have that ability anytime you want it.
Great post. I stopped drinking for good 2 years ago, after 20 odd years of being drunk pretty much every night. For me, the enjoyment was gone, and only the habit remained, along with a pile of worries about if/when my health would fail. After a rough few days, I've not looked back, and have no plans to drink again (I could never moderate). I too have lost weight, feel great, and still enjoy parties. My wife is somewhat dismayed that the stupid behaviour she put down to the drink is actually the real me and my warped mind! If you like drinking and can drink in moderation, then keep going, but if you need to stop, then go for it. Just stop fully, and stay stopped. NB: I found Allen Carr's "Easy Way to Control Alcohol" book useful - he uses some great imagery I found helpful in the early days after stopping.
I hardly post comments here but I have to thank you bub! I quit drinking for 3 years and unfortunately started it a year ago again.
I quit drinking because of my aunt who died because of liver cirrhosis (result of alcohol addiction), started it again because the last year wasn't an easy one for me. :/
I was very proud that I could stop drinking and still having fun. I had the exact same moment you mentioned, where some random girl told me that I was sooo drunk yesterday and I just replied.. nope, I was sober. :D
During my time drinking I lost extremely much of my former productivity. I have to admit I don't regret every drunk evening, there were some really good too! But I definitely lost mental strength during my drinking time.
I had to lough at the point where you wrote about the lost money and in my case gained weight. That's all true too.
Thanks for writing this. I've felt the same way for pretty much my whole life, and I'm glad there are other people who feel the same way. It's a much better investment in yourself to be comfortable being your best, most uninhibited self, without sacrificing mental clarity.
That said, I did hear one argument from a friend once that made me understand drinking a little more. When you drink heavily with a friend, you're in effect saying that you trust that person enough to see you without full control of yourself. It's a more intimate interaction as a result. I half buy that, though I still avoid alcohol.
The most important thing to remember about all this is that there really isn't any judgement involved. When I'm hanging out with people, I want them to be fun and uninhibited. If that requires alcohol, that's fine. It's a personal choice to increase my own happiness, not a judgement of anyone else.
Agreed, especially on the judgement point. I really didn't intend to, but I think I offended a few people here because it sounded like I was passing judgement on people that do drink.
I just bought my wife a 6-pack of beer from the store yesterday and I think she's the most amazing person on this planet.
To each their own. I never drank alcohol, not until long after my student days had come and gone. Some of my best friends never drink, either. It doesn't stop you from having fun, nor does the inverse guarantee you'll have fun. But in the end, it's your own choice, and it's always interesting to see different points of view being discussed on HN.
I've seen these kind of people, and the fact is that they are not "the fun of the party" though they themselves of course can enjoy themselves (and the drunk people don't mind).
It's the "drunken" people providing all the fun and atmosphere (no, you don't have to be wasted, just a little drunk so that you don't have so many inhibitions).
I know a lot of people who go out to bars, drink, and spend the entire night shouting about how drunk they are and how drunk they were all those other times they went drinking. I don't get it. I've never been a heavy partier, but my craziest, weirdest, most memory-making times have all been stone sober.
Especially with alcohol, there's a huge difference between what's promised and what's delivered. It seems to promise fun and relaxation, but really it just makes you a little wobbly and a little sick.
A friend of mine would always joke that "we're in for a night of beer and yelling!". It kind of put things in perspective.
Interesting take on fun and relaxation: Try going to a party and drinking non-alcoholic beer. It tastes kind of meh, but overall delivers the same experience. One surprising result of that is that drinking non-alcoholic beer (which has the same alcohol content as some brands of orange juice) tends to loosen you up a fair bit, because it has all the trappings and promises of an alcoholic beer. Turns out the actual alcohol is incidental to those effects.
I love the idea, but I am left not knowing what to do next. It ends with a bunch of motivational stuff, give me direct challenges! some concrete action steps and you have yourself a full blogpost article thing thats awesome and can really change the status quo
I would love to go deeper on this. I don't have the time right now to write what would be a short book length piece, but appreciate the motivation to do it.
Well its just actually a matter of perspective sometimes. If you think you could still keep up there is no problem so long as you still has control over yourself. Remember that accidents happen when we are not aware of it.
Be a responsible drinker.
Sometimes I am surprised to find I am the only straight edge hacker I know. Most of the time though I just don't care. So while I totally concur with the article I fail to see how this parses as hacker news?
Insecure people drink because they can't deal with their real selves. If you're secure with who you are, you won't need to alter your mind to do something.
The author comes across as projecting, having social issues, and obsessing on "achieving" juvenile behavior (not to say I don't engage in juvenile behavior, but it comes naturally). Flagged.
I probably was projecting a bit... as I was telling my story. The experiences, the reasons to change, etc. Were all personal reasons. And yes the focus on juvenile behavior was because I was writing to the people who party this way. What I didn't expect was so many casual drinkers to think I was speaking to them to to take offense.
I was trying to discuss a hack I made to my life. Something I've done to improve my own. And I'm a YC Founder... Seemed like a pretty good place to post this. imho
In my home country (Austria) I could buy alcohol at age 13 without any problems. No one would ask for an ID. I think nowadays they are a little bit stricter, but you are still legally allowed to buy alcohol once you turn 16. Once you turn a little bit older alcohol isn't that interesting any more. Of course, you'd still buy a beer (or more) if you're partying with friends, but getting totally wasted is something teenagers would do.
I've moved to the US some time ago, and here I have the impression that even people in their late-twenties get regularly drunk just "because they can" and are "allowed to do so". Seems they just never learned how to use alcohol responsibly while they were young, and at some age it's too late to learn it.