> Since you must have already read my above comment about punishable speech that "in context, directly causes specific imminent serious harm", you must now be arguing that there are words beyond that which cause violence.
Correct.
> Words are not violence.
Sure. But I never claimed as such. I said words could cause violence. Combustion is not flight, and yet combustion, in the right circumstances, causes flight. Two things need not be equivalent for there to be a causal relationship between them.
> you turn into the censor.
Assuredly, but here you're begging the question. Why is becoming the censor an ill that must, at all costs, be avoided?
> It draws people towards the cause you seek to censor, not away from it.
This is a common claim, but we know it to be untrue. While certainly, some people may be drawn to the restricted section of the library, fewer people will ultimately here the material than if it's being preached about on the street. We see this with censorship all the time, both empirical examples (censorship of sex-related topics in religious communities) and quantifiable ones [0].
> Fundamentally, this is the exact opposite of the point I'm making
No, I mean that in the quote you provided, his claim that "in our experience, actually censoring makes things work" is totally unsupported. You have to trust him that that's true, and of course the guy who runs the free speech organization is going to say that censorship is bad. If he didn't believe that, he wouldn't run the free speech organization. My simple question is "what if there's a point after which free speech actually makes things worse"?
I mean you already agree that such a point exists: imminent violent action. But presumably I could come up with other examples of things you'd be okay with censoring (CSAM is a common example). If you're okay banning that speech, what's the harm in moving the needle a bit in one direction or the other, especially if moving it results in a society that is more stable?
I think there are good and nuanced answers to all of those questions, but you aren't even engaging with them because you seem to be claiming that, without exception, it is obvious that the optimal and least harmful choice when picking what speech we should ban is "imminent violence incitement and nothing else", and when I ask "why set the bar there", you quote someone who says "trust me". That's not convincing.
> I think you should stop ignoring the parts you don't accept, you're coming across as dishonest.
What parts?
> Specifically with the irony that while you decry "trust us," it is precisely what is required to accept your "moving of the needle a little bit."
Not at all because, I have not argued for any particular movement. What I'm asking for is a argument that the status quo is optimal that is more robust than "trust us the alternatives would be worse", especially when there are fairly good examples of the needle being in other places in other nations and it being, generally speaking, fine.
> I have not argued for any particular movement. What I'm asking for is a argument that the status quo is optimal
Why? Nobody said it's written in stone. Laws remain open to interpretation for as long as a judiciary exists.
> there are fairly good examples of the needle being in other places in other nations and it being, generally speaking, fine.
It sounds like you have a particular idea about what should be changed, yet you are reluctant to say which one, and you simultaneously want everyone replying to you to address all of those possibilities ("you aren't even engaging with them").
In other words, you are placing all responsibility upon your interlocutors to anticipate your thinking and none upon yourself.
> It sounds like you have a particular idea about what should be changed
Not at all.
I mean yes I have opinions, but I'm not advocating for any particular opinion here. I'm asking for you to justify yours with something better than the ACLU president having said "trust me". Why is the line where it is in the US better than the line a little to the left or the right of that? What makes the choice to ban the speech we do and allow the speech we do, as opposed to more or less socially optimal?
Fundamentally, I'm not asking you to anticipate my thinking, I'm asking you to catch up and engage with the questions I've already engaged with (some of which I asked upthread!). Because it is unsatisfying that the only answer you can provide to "why should we do things this way" is "trust us, the alternatives would be worse".
> I'm asking for you to justify yours with something better than the ACLU president having said "trust me".
This article is from FIRE, not the ACLU. The ACLU now interprets civil liberties and rights to be potentially in conflict with each other, which is part of why FIRE got started and grew so much.
> I'm not asking you to anticipate my thinking, I'm asking you to catch up and engage with the questions I've already engaged with (some of which I asked upthread!)
The questions you asked were already answered before you asked them. You did not absorb the discussion above before you started asking questions, and are now asking to be spoon fed answers. Take some time to read the other comments above in this chain, check out the sources, listen to FIRE speakers on why current jurisprudence is where it is. Nobody is saying "trust us", they're saying, "this is what I think, and here are the sources that inform my thinking. You can check them out and decide for yourself whether you agree or disagree."
You've ignored all of this and insist that someone must tell you why they are right. Nobody can decide for you what's right. Opinions are subjective. Make up your own mind, nobody can do it for you.
One example, where it was pointed out there are already limitations on free speech quite strictly defined under law.
Your second point is impossible to argue, because you request that someone argue against a subjective and infinitely definable 'optimal' that you projected.
Correct.
> Words are not violence.
Sure. But I never claimed as such. I said words could cause violence. Combustion is not flight, and yet combustion, in the right circumstances, causes flight. Two things need not be equivalent for there to be a causal relationship between them.
> you turn into the censor.
Assuredly, but here you're begging the question. Why is becoming the censor an ill that must, at all costs, be avoided?
> It draws people towards the cause you seek to censor, not away from it.
This is a common claim, but we know it to be untrue. While certainly, some people may be drawn to the restricted section of the library, fewer people will ultimately here the material than if it's being preached about on the street. We see this with censorship all the time, both empirical examples (censorship of sex-related topics in religious communities) and quantifiable ones [0].
> Fundamentally, this is the exact opposite of the point I'm making
No, I mean that in the quote you provided, his claim that "in our experience, actually censoring makes things work" is totally unsupported. You have to trust him that that's true, and of course the guy who runs the free speech organization is going to say that censorship is bad. If he didn't believe that, he wouldn't run the free speech organization. My simple question is "what if there's a point after which free speech actually makes things worse"?
I mean you already agree that such a point exists: imminent violent action. But presumably I could come up with other examples of things you'd be okay with censoring (CSAM is a common example). If you're okay banning that speech, what's the harm in moving the needle a bit in one direction or the other, especially if moving it results in a society that is more stable?
I think there are good and nuanced answers to all of those questions, but you aren't even engaging with them because you seem to be claiming that, without exception, it is obvious that the optimal and least harmful choice when picking what speech we should ban is "imminent violence incitement and nothing else", and when I ask "why set the bar there", you quote someone who says "trust me". That's not convincing.
[0]: https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/study-finds-reddits-contro...