I'd imagine moving back to India after being successful in the US gives you lots of leverage and status, in the sense of being a big fish in a smaller pool (what a beautiful irony, thinking of India of all places as the smaller pool, heh).
But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse? I've never been there (or in the US, for that matter), but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India. Also, the country seems so... chaotic, the cultural shock must be crazy.
That's correct. I live in Bangalore, India and there are a lot more issues than just quality of life.
1. Since, I am from North India, Bangalore treats us like foreigners i.e. if you don't speak the native language, you will be at a significant disadvantage when requiring the assistance of police.
2. Rather, the police has been known to discriminate against `outsiders`. You can even head over to r/bangalore to know more.
3. The income inequality is real and through the roof. We tech people make much much more than any other private profession and this has made the general population unhappy.
4. Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
Which is why I've been leetcoding and preparing to emigrate to Canada/UK. While it's true that I can save a lot more money here (in real terms! At PPP, my monthly savings allows me live for several months without an income) but at what cost.
Not trying to prove / disprove things, but here are some observations.
1. Yeah the language barrier can be a lot - but no matter which city I lived in - I have always had people help me out with the local language. In smaller villages/towns - it can be harder to find people who can do that for you though.
2. I can't say much about this because I didn't have to deal with this in a meaningful way.
3. I think it is more complicated than "tech people make much more". As a point of reference - the street food vendors (pani puri guys for eg.), the uber drivers, the blue collar workers and sometimes even the house help i talked to - they all made more money than the "IT people" they provide services to. And outside IT - my doctor, lawyer, architect friends all earn quite well - while being under a lot less stress. I do see huge income inequality though - but at the same time it is more complicated than I thought it would be.
4. Honestly - I used to think the same too but you need to figure out what/where to look at. We IT folk tend to live in a bubble (Especially when living in another city) and that hides a lot of the cultural aspects of the city from us. I have had friends who are into hiking, cycling, rock climbing, theater, dance classes, standup comedy, music making, painting, cooking clubs. And sometimes, You really might be alone when it comes to some hobbies. But that's when your high PPP can come in real handy and help you get started with your own club. I don't think "I can save a lot more money here but..." would be a problem once you figure out what exactly you want to spend that money on.
> As a point of reference - the street food vendors (pani puri guys for eg.), the uber drivers, the blue collar workers and sometimes even the house help i talked to - they all made more money than the "IT people" they provide services to.
Don't know about Bangalore, but in Pune (another IT City in India), this is not true at all. These people might be earning more than fresher programmers and Testers just starting out but as soon as these freshers get 2-3 years of experience, their salaries get doubled and tripled quite easily. Also quality of life of a programmer working from a AC office and a Uber driver driving for 10-12 hours a day are 2 very different things. Also after 5 years this programmer will be earning much more than this taxi driver.
No I am claiming that pani puri vendors I talked to, make around 60-70000 INR a month - which is more than what many of the "IT sweatshops" (Accenture, Deloitte, Infosys, TCS etc..) pay here (for people with < 5 years of work experience)
> This is true true virtually everywhere in the world.
you don't expect it in your OWN country, just moving to a different state, you are an outsider. Its because India was put together just like that, because the British ruled over many peoples and their languages.
Which country apart from Papua New Guinea has the linguistic diversity comparable to India? Migrants everywhere understand the need to learn the local language. It's only the Hindi speakers, high on the delusions of national language that see this as a problem.
> Its because India was put together just like that, because the British ruled over many peoples and their languages.
Right, because India didn't have any multilingual polities before the British?
This unfortunate take is solely based on a single data point i.e. life of a North Indian in Bengaluru. Such extrapolations when applied to a huge and diverse country like India does not present a comprehensive picture.
> Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
I am just amazed at this comment. The wondrous ruins of Hampi are just a train ride away. Then there's the UNESCO protected majestic western ghats few hours away, and not to mention the pristing beaches of Malpe and Udupi. I mean Chamundi hills, Hogenakkal etc is right next to the city.
> The wondrous ruins of Hampi are just a train ride away. Then there's the UNESCO protected majestic western ghats few hours away, and not to mention the pristing beaches of Malpe and Udupi
I agree, there are certainly amazing places to sight-see but I am largely referring to activities like rock climbing gyms (https://www.youtube.com/c/magmidt88), archery, horse riding, accessible national parks and a more extensive board games culture (surprisingly Hyderabad has 2 active clubs)
The Indian society would cast you as an extremely privileged person if you were to bring this up and rightly so, since most people here are trying to live a life first.
I understand that it may not be what everyone wants and this is personal to what I prefer. I would like to be in a place with a better infrastructure (trains), schools and with access to more recreational activities.
>I am largely referring to activities like rock climbing gyms, archery, horse riding, accessible national parks and a more extensive board games culture
That is an interesting comment to see, because a cursory Google Maps search gives plenty of results. I think I can easily say that Bangalore has archery clubs [1], Rock Climbing gyms [2], Equestrian clubs [3] and a National park [4] (with others also pretty accessible). I can't, of course, talk about board games because I can't get that from a cursory Google search, but this is an interesting nitpick.
Others have pointed it out but I've got to reiterate: if you don't like Bangalore, just go to another city? There's thriving tech scenes in Hyderabad, Pune and Gurgaon, and in none of those cities are North Indians unwelcome. I can also personally vouch for fun out of work activities in Hyderabad and Gurgaon.
(And while I don't mean to deny your personal experience, I've never faced any trouble in Bangalore despite not being a Kannadiga.)
I moved from Switzerland to India sometime back, for reasons similar to OP's.
Here are my ₹2
> quality of life
"Quality" is subjective. My wife and I value having our parents around, being able to afford a cook/maid/nanny, not having to deal with winter and darkness, ...
> infrastructure
For sure it's worse in India. But our lifestyle here is such that we don't have to deal with it frequently. We live next to friends, in a arguably beautiful society, and when we do need something done, we inevitably "know a guy who knows a guy", who can help sort things out without us having to deal with the subpar infra. But yes, for sure India could do a lot better on this front.
> chaotic
For someone like me, who was born and raised here, it is easy to thrive in this chaos. This is home.
What if you provided those domestic servants place to live, food, internet, TV, sofa, clothing, etc, and also salary, and of course you let them take vacation as well.
There will always be subjective differences between India and the USA and not everything is hunky dory, but there are some things India is IMO better than USA for an Indian expat:
1. Climate: India is definitely sunny and enjoys predictable weather patterns all year round. Climate change might upset the equation, but it is still bright and sunny.
2. Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains etc are all there and South East Asia and Africa are just a flight away. India is 2nd only to Africa when it comes to wildlife.
3. Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region and there is an amazing variety of fruits and vegetables that are local to the regions.
4. Social support: The society is definitely more warm and cordial compared to USA. There is house help readily available and the extended family support is unbeatable.
5. Booming tech scene: India will soon need to support it's own internal market which is growing exponentially. The success of Byju's DarwinBox etc is just a start.
Except 4 & 5, the first few cannot be said "subjectively better". This is your personal opinion, not the "statistically true" opinion.
>Climate
Definitely hotter in most (80%) of India, from late February to mid-October. US states enjoys more cloudless sunny weather per annum.
>Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains [...]
US is almost a continent. It has all these and more. Sorry.
> Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region
True for US too. California, Midwest, Florida and North Carolina produce majority of US food primary produce. Infact, they export it. And we import a lot of these to India.
No. It isn't. Compare the landmass size & it explains what I mean. Compare the number of unique wildlife species & recognized biodiversity exclusive zones - and it shows the stark difference. Reserved & National parks cover far greater chunk of both US & CAN as compared to India, with the possible exclusion of some African countries (by %landmass coverage)
>Come back when the US has Himalaya, Wildlife like tigers, lions, rhinos, snow leopards, Elephants, Gaurs, Nilgai, Dholes etc.
N. America has Rockies & Appalachia - wild boars, bisons & reindeers & similarly exotic flora and fauna. I personally like rattlesnakes, gophers & opposums. Somewhat exclusive to US SW. What's your point, except sounding mildly absurd.
> As someone who has lived in both India and the US, I can say that they both havr beautiful nature
As someone who lived between India, US, EU & Japan for practically all my life continually after high school, I must better qualify to give a reasoned opinion based on your logic, no? Counting number of years in a country is meaningless to discuss, if your only jaunt is a weekend hike somewhere. I work for a biodiversity conservation agency additional to my CS job. Its a serious job done gratis in cooperation with Greenpeace. How about you?
I can tell unequivocally that conservation efforts are very slim in India. If you seek an answer, choose any hill station & observe the deforestation around it. India claims recently green cover increased. Thats factually incorrect because they count shrubbery as green patches. What matters is contiguous forest which is fast disappearing in Southern Himalayas, Nilgiris and even remote places like Sunderbans & NE hills. The proliferation of waste & solid pollutants in green cover is a much more complex topic which would entail its own thread. Summarily NPS in US is still doing a better conservation as compared to Indian counterparts, although not on a vastly larger budget (i.e order of magnitude larger, as anyone would normally expect)
I base my answer on stats not personal opinion. Just a last nitpick - you have misquoted me.
I wrote "US is almost a continent. It has all these and more. Sorry." Your cherry pick "US is almost a continent. Sorry" made it sound more dismissive.
I’ll have to nitpick your last point. Unless you’re going to a farmer’s market, the quality of fruit and vegetables in America is abysmal. Watery hard fruit, etc.
You can get the same terrible strawberries all year round if you want though.
I’ve never been to India, but I assume the situation is better, at least based on how people rave about mangoes.
Its a hit or miss in India. It isn't that the quality is vastly superior. You still get a produce from far away - and the fish is usually delivered on ice slab. The soil isn't that arable as you might expect, as the biggest chunk is loamy & alluvial soil of North India is exclusively wheat & sugarcane. Monsanto despite all its evils does a good job in Midwest. No similar equivalent in India unfortunately. Plus mechanisation rate is low because of land fragmentation. These are collective factors that make yield (qual + quant) a variable thing.
My dad grew his own vegetables. The only guaranteed fresh ones I ate :) Fun fact: Best mangoes generally are from Philippines. The Cebuano variety. Alfonso is mighty overrated.
Fruit in the tropics is unbelievably different from anything you can find in California. You can end up paying Erewhon and higher prices in the US and not getting close to the cheap tropical fruit in India.
It’s a choice, though. Sushi is not as well available. European food is rare. Beef is not as good in India.
If you’ve got cosmopolitan sensibilities you will find that there are trade-offs. For some reason, people get very attached to food so these comments get very contentious.
But a fresh ripe banganapallee is not something you’re really going to experience in America. It is just absent.
And if you live in India only, you will never get to experience top quality BBQ. This is reality.
There is house help readily available in the U.S. - the caveat is that you can't afford it unless you're super-wealthy relative to the average population. Incidentally, that's the same in India.
In India anyone earning Rs. 75K a month, (around 1K USD) can easily afford house help for cleaning dishes, and sweeping floor and cooking food. My personal expenses on these 3 things are Rs. 7500 per month (around $100).
Imo it isn’t worth it. My family left India for a better life because having no running water and spotty electricity is an awful living experience. But the worst part is going outside and seeing that 80% of the people are doing worse than you and the suffering I saw was absolutely mind boggling. This was back in the 90s and 00s.
I went back recently in 2017/18 and between the 400ppm smog (when there was a wildfire near me in CA it was like 160) and people driving the wrong way across lanes in the smog fog and the traffic and poverty, I found the occasional Mercedes and other luxury car stuck sideways in traffic in the middle of the four lane highway that’s now somehow 9 to be extremely ironic.
I know I personally would find it extremely difficult to move there. I couldn’t deal with the fact that we went to a ultra luxury mall and came outside to be surrounded once again my mind boggling poverty and seeing everything from beggars to people in Benzes stuck in the same road. You go back to your nice home and still hear honking or breathe in the smog.
Moving to America was my lottery winning experience. I’m forever grateful for it.
But you'd still live the life of a multi millionaire if you moved to India, no? You'd easily be in the top 1% I think, that means a personal driver and help, a gated community etc etc. So how bad would quality of life be to you then?
Yes pollution is the great equalizer though, rich people have to breathe the same air mostly (for now...)
Great points. India is in a weird composition when it comes to the lifestyles people lead there. The problem is income inequality and lack of an economic balance thereof. I am sure there are a lot less beggars these days than there were in the 90's. The government, albeit corrupt, is slowly lifting people out of the poverty line and looking at the private sector, there are more employment opportunities now. Wage levels are still not up to the mark, and quickly diminish in value after trying to meet the costs of basic necessities like housing and transportation (fuel). We may need to hold on for another 10 years or so and see for ourselves what stage India may get to, at that point.
> being successful in the US gives you lots of leverage and status
That use to be the case. The shine has definitely worn off. I would say the work culture in Indian product companies are much more closer to its western counterparts. (Service companies are a different ball-game)
> But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse
In my opinion, India is worse off in 2 things primarily: 1. Population density in cities 2. Poorer govt. Having said that a lot of things have improved in last decade:
1. Payment infrastructure is probably the best in the world.
2. Govt services increasingly getting online and digitised. This used to be a big friction before.
3. Govt services are increasingly streamlined in last 10 years e.g. Huge improvement in passport application/renewal
4. Investing heavily in physical infrastructure. E.g About 36 KM/day is getting added as National Highways [1]
5. Biggest Tax Reform called GST in last 50 years. The implementation is shaky but improving.
6. Incentivising production in India called PLI scheme. It received huge response [2]
As far as startups are concerned, the sentiment here (at least for me) is "we-can-also-do-this" and "we-can-be-the-best". This uptick in confidence is palpable (again where I am standing)
10 years ago, I would have never imagined electric scooters/cars being designed (and not just manufactured) in India [3]
I can't speak about India, but I am a Romanian who worked in Austria, and when coming back, I noticed the infrastructure is lacking, especially public transport.
Still, with my savings and investments, my quality of life is much better than a typical Romanian's, though not quite on par with Austria's.
One thing that people who haven't lived in India don't realise -- depending on where you live (much like in the US), you can have an extremely high quality of life, including access to world class education and healthcare. And it would be even higher for someone coming back from the US, since they would have friend and family networks in addition to everything else. The only thing that would be truly hard to get away from would be the pollution and traffic in the cities.
Quality of life is actually pretty great in India once you pass a certain income threshold. I would argue that its higher in certain aspects especially if your family is back there.
Many people somehow are able to overlook the lack of infrastructure and accident prone roads. Family+having access to maids, cooks, drivers, etc is a big driver of this behavior.
There's immense variance in the quality of life you can find in India. In some places (esp. private townships) you'll feel no different than in classier parts of Europe, in others you'll be apalled at how one can humanely live here. The chaos is.. an acquired taste. I find beauty in it.
> but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India
That is true, but most tech folks live in cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad and Pune and can skip bad infra part. For residential there are premium societies and here office spaces are build like hotels.
For transport there are metros(ongoing in Bangalore) . Roads are only unavoidable bad infra.
But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse? I've never been there (or in the US, for that matter), but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India. Also, the country seems so... chaotic, the cultural shock must be crazy.