It's very clear how cryptography benefits people. We are not discussing that, we are discussing cryptocurrencies and blockchains and cryptographic ledgers. And we are not looking to explain how all that works, because first we need to identify real world problems which would be solved by those technologies, and yes, somehow you can't get past how they are beneficial. You have provided three examples, but others have questioned whether crypto would solve them, and I don't believe you have provided adequate arguments to defend your position. It was fairly easy for me to understand the motivation behind cloud computing, or stock market, or credit cards. Blockchains originally sounded like it might be something as significant. Yet many years later nothing particular useful has materialized. And it's not even clear if it ever will.
> and I don't believe you have provided adequate arguments to defend your position.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. Maybe a more relatable and simpler problem would help, this one exclusively with cryptocurrency (no NFTs):
I can print a piece of cotton/paper that looks like a US dollar bill, manipulate it and with enough effort make it look convincing enough to fool someone in to thinking its a real dollar, then go to the store and exchange it for some good. I simply cannot do that with a Bitcoin.
If you want to debate whether or not fabricating a dollar bill out of something significantly less valuable than a dollar bill is a problem that needs solving, find someone else.
If you want to debate whether or not you can fabricate a Bitcoin out of nothing, you're now entering the realm of theoretical mathematics. I am not an expert in that, but the crypotgraphy and cryptology classes I took as an undergrad ~15 years ago were good enough for me to trust it.
If you want to debate whether that singular problem is worth a system like Bitcoin, you're probably on to something but it seems like we haven't gotten to that point yet.
> I can print a piece of cotton/paper that looks like a US dollar bill, manipulate it and with enough effort make it look convincing enough to fool someone in to thinking its a real dollar, then go to the store and exchange it for some good. I simply cannot do that with a Bitcoin.
This is true but rare because it’s harder to do than it might seem and the U.S. Secret Service is quite good at shutting down counterfeiters. This costs less as a fraction of the economy than operating the Bitcoin network does, and it still provides true anonymity.
Thank you. All I was looking to do was convince someone that crypto does indeed provide a theoretical benefit, so that the conversation could evolve from "crypto SUCKS, and it doesn't do ANYTHING GOOD, and its a SCAM (read: I lost money speculating), and I DON'T LIKE IT", to: are the problems that crypto solves worth the costs.
Other problems/solutions aside, there is probably some gas fee that would make crypto worth it just for anti-counterfeiting. Do you have any sources for a numeric estimate on what counterfeiting costs the US economy?
Yes, counterfeiting is a problem. But just to clarify, to solve it - are you proposing we replace US dollar with bitcoin? If you are, have you thought this through? Has anyone? Do you think this will happen in the foreseeable future?
Thinking this through is exactly what I want the conversation to be about. I'll help you out:
[2006] "Counterfeiting of the currency of the United States is widely attempted. According to the United States Department of Treasury, an estimated $70 million in counterfeit bills are in circulation, or approximately 1 note in counterfeits for every 10,000 in genuine currency, with an upper bound of $200 million counterfeit, or 1 counterfeit per 4,000 genuine notes.[1][2] However, these numbers are based on annual seizure rates on counterfeiting, and the actual stock of counterfeit money is uncertain because some counterfeit notes successfully circulate for a few transactions."
(source: https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/offi...)
I think Bitcoin representing the totality of USD is infeasible, but there may be some adjustments or optimizations to the transaction costs associated with it that make a new currency seem more reasonable (no less scary, certainly, but fright is an emotion and economics is mathematical).
(edited quote to be more relevant to cryptocurrency specifically)
Fixed my quote. At this point I'm having a conversation with myself, so mistakes are bound to become more likely. I'll probably revisit this in a few days (or just take my thoughts elsewhere) but for now I'm out!
Awesome! I find it really pleasantly surprising when people take time to sit and think about things rather than reacting quickly, so regardless of whether or not I find myself agreeing with whatever conclusions you reach, I appreciate you doing this :)
