I love Nintendo as much as the next guy but they're hypocrites when they come to comments like the above because they're second only to Disney with regards to how aggressively they chase after their IP. So many fun indie projects have been taken down because of Nintendo. And we're not even talking about commercial games but stuff kids have thrown together as tribute to Nintendo and have put online. YouTube reviews, Twitch streams, etc all need prior agreement from Nintendo otherwise they'll come after you (and if you're lucky, they'll just take a share of your advertising revenue).
Nintendo have a massive fan base but they sure don't allow those fans to get creative.
Sega, by contrast, are the complete opposite and not only allow fan projects to exists but even allow them to operate commercially on a small scale.
edit: this comment is generating a lot more interest than I'd expected from my throwaway remarks and as a result a lot of the replies have missed the point of what I was complaining about. So I'll take some time now to expand on them a little more:
- this isn't just a "Japanese thing", Nintendo of America are just as bad. They issue hundreds of DMCA takedowns.
- this isn't a typical gaming thing either. I'm not going to pretend that all other companies are angelic but Nintendo seem uniquely proactive with chasing after their fan base even when those fans are just recording themselves playing games. Which leads me onto my 3rd point:
- Nintendo are not just trying to protect their IP. Nintendo offer a partner program that costs to be a part of and if you're not on there than your YouTube and Twitch channels can get DMCA'ed if they feature Nintendo games. Even retro gamers playing titles released 30+ years ago have been targeted. So this is often less about protecting IP and more about profiting on retro gamers hobby channels.
Nintendo's actions with the rest of the gaming community is quite unlike anything other gaming studios do. And I say this as someone actively involved in the retro gaming and streaming community. So many of my friends have ended up putting all of Nintendo's first party games on a "no play list" for their Twitch channels because of this. They've never had an issue with any other studio and they certainly don't run their channels for profit either (very few retro games on Twitch make money from their hobby). It's also hard to see how someone streaming a play through of a Nintendo game harms Nintendo as a company or their IP.
And to be clear, I do still like Nintendo in the general sense. I might not agree with how they treat their fans (particularly the retro gamers, streamers, reviewers on YT) but I do still enjoy their games. I just know better than to stream myself playing them. I guess that makes me a little hypocritical too.... :)
I don't think this is unique to Nintendo though. I feel like it's a Japan Culture thing. There's a kick start project for Street Fighter history where a studio backed out of doing an interview due to it not being sanctioned by Capcom. When ever I need to work with companies in Japan, it's a struggle of bureaucracy and politics.
I don't think it's a uniquely Japanese thing but there's definitely a culture there. However my point is Nintendo aren't just passively refusing to work with fans, they're pro-actively shutting down fan projects, Twitch streams and YouTube review channels in ways that other Japanese studios are not. It's also not just Nintendo of Japan doing it, their American company also behaves the same.
I have friends who stream retro games via Twitch and the only they've ever had infractions from Twitch is when Nintendo have reported them for playing a retro Nintendo game without Nintendo's consent.
There's also bunch of YouTube videos from disgruntled reviewers moaning about how they've been treated by Nintendo, which I can't find right now.
So this isn't something I've just made up. It's a common gripe with the retro gaming and streaming community.
Japan has strict IP laws with no concept of fair use, so you do need to get permission for a lot of things. That's part of why entertainment journalism like games/music is super bland there.
(Of course there's also a big unofficial fanart for profit community, which some companies tolerate because it gets them an artist pipeline.)
Nintendo of America are just as aggressive and, as I've mentioned before, other Japanese games studios aren't nearly as proactive in shutting down fan content. Sega, for example, practically endorse it.
As someone who's actively involved in the retro gaming community on Twitch, there is a very stark difference between Nintendo and almost every other studio.
This doesn't match the reality here. There are chains of stores (Melonbooks, Mandarake, K-Books, Toranoana) that have multiple store fronts that contain 60-70% unlicensed fan-fiction manga (comics).
That fan fiction is 90% sex related. Those stores have been running for ~20yrs? No one is shutting them down. Further the biggest comic event Comiket, is 70% unlicensed fan-fiction manga
That's a large limited case where the copyright owners are allowing it. There are doujin that won't be resold after the first time (real people especially male idols) or that won't be sold in the first place (Nintendo).
One of the most popular series (Touhou) got that way because it has a permissive copyright license for the game world. I believe Comiket has some kind of legal exemption for the event too, though I don't remember the details.
On the other hand, Sega is known for being much, much friendlier with fan projects.
Sometimes Sega even hires the developers, as was the case with Christian Whitehead, who did some Sonic ports for them, and then went on to make the critically acclaimed Sonic Mania.
They are literally saying make your own IP and here is money to do it in your own company that they just passively invest in with no relation to Nintendo as a parent company.
They're saying grow the fuck up, and acknowledging that since that’s so hard for an entire generation they’ve inspired, they are trying to inspire these adult-children again with venture capital to create new things.
That’s the opposite of hypocrisy. Pursuing their own property rights to keep their property valuable? Sell them some shares and they’ll make sure you have that expectation with your IP too.
How does going after Twitch streamers playing retro games fall into any of what you've said? Because Nintendo have targeted them.
How does YouTube reviewers fall into that category? Because Nintendo have targeted them too.
You don't realise just how far reaching Nintendo's lawyers are and thus just assume it's the usual case of "They're stealing from us!" (to quote Pirates of Silicon Valley).
Ah okay, yes I’m aware they do that and they should call off the hounds. This isn’t the thread for that. It is very easy to compartmentalize these things, just like the other people making real money and wealth in this world do. This is a private equity firm from a securities trader. Nintendo was their tech play where they also got to premine all the shares. Its cute you and others have been inspired by that alpha generating bet. That was a complete thought.
The discussion organically lead to my point (I don't just go around moaning about Nintendo for giggles in any old thread) and it's not as if HN doesn't already have a long and rich history of conversations going off topic.
I also don't see why authority you have to tell me which topics are off topic on this discussion board. If you're not interested in a tangent then fold it and move on. It's what I do :)
Yeah, I get that. I feel like the trademark and copyright system is set up that way where lawyers are incentivized to defend IP. Some consider it a must, to protect those IPs.
At any rate, I would love to see something like a decentralized Disney or Nintendo spring up in the world. Like a decentralized universe of open source characters that people could interact with and riff on. Something like what happens with memes like Pepe already, but more Disney/Nintendo-esque. I wonder if that couldn't be organized with a DAO for the community to contribute to and fund the artists that build the characters and universe. Anyways, random thoughts.
But isn’t it the strict control of brand and image that make those characters so enjoyed. If you let anyone do anything they can change/misrepresent the brand in an irreversible way... just like Pepe...
I don't think so. Pepe is still quite hilarious for meme material. I can ignore bad actors with an open IP and still enjoy the good stuff.
And meanwhile, I think stuff like fan art, fan fiction, spin offs, etc could maybe create an even more vibrant ecosystem than a Disney or Nintendo ever could.
I mean, look at the ancient Greek and Roman mythology. That was an open source ecosystem of stories and legends that different people contributed to and built on over long periods of time. It could easily happen today.
Open Source Disney, Open Source Marvel, Open Source Nintendo
I think the time is right for such a thing to happen.
The interesting thing there is that Disney made their money by reselling public domain content:
- The Little Mermaid
- The Jungle Book
- Tarzan
- Cinderella
- A Christmas Carol
- Fantasia
- Pinocchio
- Alice in Wonderland
- Beauty and the Beast
- Aladin
- Heracles
etc
All folk tails or public domain stories. Even Tangled and Frozen have taken heavily from other stories. And I'm certain there's more I've forgotten.
Likewise Marvel has borrowed a lot from Norse mythology with Thor's story arcs.
I've never really followed comic book fandom that closely so I can't comment on what pre-Disney Marvel were like to their fans. But with regards to Disney, it always left a bad taste in my mouth just how aggressively Disney were to protect their IP from harmless fans when Disney themselves owe their millions to ripping off other peoples stories.
Did you know Superhero is a trademaked term held by the duo Marvel (now Disney) and DC.
That said they have never tried to test that trademark in the courts.
I thought about putting another term into the public domain, something like uberheros/ultraheros and then allowing artists, writers, and other creatives to define their characters as such, and while also in the public domain, allow remixing and reinterpretation of the archetypes and stories.
I think the easiest way to start this would be to setup a git repo to describe how it works and what it means to place one of your characters or stories into the public domain. Then build a community and tools to help people and teams do so.
I have no issue with companies shutting down content that could be seen as harming their image. But the vast majority of fan content is complimentary. For example, do you think a Twitch stream of a retro game is somehow harming or misrepresenting Nintendo's brand?
Nintendo is historically HUGE on being family-friendly and controlling their image.
Streamers telling raunchy jokes, dressing sexily and/or swearing while playing a Mario game probably does hurt Nintendo's brand, at least in their eyes.
There's a reason Smash Brothers Ultimate's online mode only has voice chat in private rooms through a smartphone app.
Those characters are enjoyed because of the strength of the games that feature them. Nintendo's recent abuse of DMCA is only hurting that legacy. As the grandparent pointed out, Sega are nowhere near this litigious.
I think that's more true in America than it is the world over. Even in Europe where Mario is still iconic, it's not as pronounced as in America. Furthermore it wasn't always that way. Particularly in the 90s and 00s when games were really mascot heavy.
Sega is actually having a resurgence on the back of Yakuza games, although I don't know how many people know any of their other IPs. They did totally disappear for a long time.
Nintendo have a massive fan base but they sure don't allow those fans to get creative.
Sega, by contrast, are the complete opposite and not only allow fan projects to exists but even allow them to operate commercially on a small scale.
edit: this comment is generating a lot more interest than I'd expected from my throwaway remarks and as a result a lot of the replies have missed the point of what I was complaining about. So I'll take some time now to expand on them a little more:
- this isn't just a "Japanese thing", Nintendo of America are just as bad. They issue hundreds of DMCA takedowns.
- this isn't a typical gaming thing either. I'm not going to pretend that all other companies are angelic but Nintendo seem uniquely proactive with chasing after their fan base even when those fans are just recording themselves playing games. Which leads me onto my 3rd point:
- Nintendo are not just trying to protect their IP. Nintendo offer a partner program that costs to be a part of and if you're not on there than your YouTube and Twitch channels can get DMCA'ed if they feature Nintendo games. Even retro gamers playing titles released 30+ years ago have been targeted. So this is often less about protecting IP and more about profiting on retro gamers hobby channels.
Nintendo's actions with the rest of the gaming community is quite unlike anything other gaming studios do. And I say this as someone actively involved in the retro gaming and streaming community. So many of my friends have ended up putting all of Nintendo's first party games on a "no play list" for their Twitch channels because of this. They've never had an issue with any other studio and they certainly don't run their channels for profit either (very few retro games on Twitch make money from their hobby). It's also hard to see how someone streaming a play through of a Nintendo game harms Nintendo as a company or their IP.
And to be clear, I do still like Nintendo in the general sense. I might not agree with how they treat their fans (particularly the retro gamers, streamers, reviewers on YT) but I do still enjoy their games. I just know better than to stream myself playing them. I guess that makes me a little hypocritical too.... :)