I worked at a preseed company recently. Here's my experience:

- Work 9 to 7 everyday. 6 days a week.

- People are working 9 am - 5 am in crunch time. Then joining again at 10 am.

- Monetary Comp is exactly market average.

- Equity Comp is even more paltry since founders raised at a huge valuation.

- Founders make unrealistic promises. Eg: It took a competitor with 7 people, 3 months to make a product. The founder told us Saturday that he wanted it built by Monday (with 3 total devs).

- Founders message you 24 x 7. If you don't reply, there's a "serious discussion" to be had next time.

- Non Accomodating of anything because "It's a startup".

I left the place after 10 weeks. I saw 3 people leaving the 6 person company in these 10 weeks. The ones who stayed were under heavy financial stress or had drank the kool aid.

it's important to figure out where to set your own boundaries. people out to exploit you will seek to see how far they can push. congratulations for leaving.

one thing that catches out some junior folks is that they may believe this kind of behaviour from bosses is normal and unavoidable as they have only worked for exploitative bosses at places with toxic cultures. you can do better, you're worth it. get out. find a more mature company with professional managers, where it's normal to leave the office on time and turn off all your work comms and leave all work-related messages unanswered until you're back in the office and getting paid to think about work again.

I think this is the right point, but it's tough.

People don't like to say "no" or "can't do it in that timeline" and other permutations of these statements. If you can't even challenge or disagree with anything, then you're doing something wrong, or you're in the wrong environment, or both.

20 years into my career and still practicing this.

One hack: I can't respond when I'm asleep! So, I head to bed pretty early (9:30-10 EST).

This is a great post. No need for the throwaway account!

   > Founders message you 24 x 7. If you don't reply, there's a "serious discussion" to be had next time.

That one is my favourite.

> Founders message you 24 x 7. If you don't reply, there's a "serious discussion" to be had next time.

You drop them a bunch of messages to get signoff for the thing that absolutely had to go live on Thrusday and dont hear from them till Sunday because they are tripping on Ayahuasca in the desert.

There's a "serious discussion" to be had next time about your work ethic.

Honest question: do people with young kids do these jobs well, or at all?

I'm sure the answer is sometimes, yes. But, as a 41-yr-old father of two kids (6, 2) and a wife in PE, the pace and stress strike me as contradictory to being present in a marriage, being present with my kids, managing my health, etc.

I'd love to hear how the people with families manage (or fail) this pace?

There are many reasons that startups tend to have young employees.

As someone in a similar place in my life, I'd never take a job like that either.

Yeah - financial risks aside. It just seems difficult to do this without major disruptions to family life as I am a part of it. Of course, you can hire as many people as you need (if you have the means) to resolve the logistical problem. But my absense isn’t replaceable like that.

I expect not really? I'm 42, married, but no kids. I can't imagine joining an early stage startup. Not just for the kinds of reasons you mention (being present in a marriage), but just because it sounds so exhausting. When I was 30 I could pull an all-nighter and still have a somewhat productive next full day at work until I could finally get some sleep that evening. But these days I'll be a passed-out wreck by 10am, at best, assuming I even make it through the night, and will feel like shit for a couple days afterward.

There's a reason why people in their 20s or early 30s, and/or without a partner or kids, are over-represented in early startups. When I was deepest in my startup work as an employee, I had no time to date, and didn't bother to try. My friends barely saw me; most of the little socializing I did was with my co-workers, and that socializing often felt more like work than play, as we were usually discussing (or complaining about) work.

I do know people our (current) age, with families, who have done it, but I frankly have no idea how, and I'm sure it put a strain on their marriage and on their relationship with their kids.

On the flip side, as someone who has no kids (and doesn't intend to have any), I have noticed a lot more tolerance for missing work / missing meetings / ducking out for a while when it's for childcare than for any other reason. But a childless employee is seen as having no excuse for needing time out of the office here and there for whatever reason. (I suppose this is true to some degree of both startups and established companies, though.)

I've worked for a startup similar to that, though it was series A when I joined. It was gross. I stayed there for nearly a year and a half because I did genuinely enjoy the work and my peers, but ultimately the founders ruined the experience for me with their evasiveness and lies, and their creepy later-on focus on "loyalty" when the company's prospects started to go downhill. The last straw was when I was told by another often-in-the-know employee (whom I trusted) that one of the founders had found out I was interviewing at another company, and he called someone he knew there and told them not to hire me. Obviously I don't know for a fact that's what happened, but it sounded believable based on the founder's other behavior, coupled with the seemingly-fantastic interview experience I had.

That hurt, but I realized I had to do a better job of treating interviews as a two-way street. The company was interviewing me, sure, but I also needed to interview them, and learn what I could about the kind of people the founders and my peers were. I also needed to understand up-front what would be expected of me, and how flexible they could be with my time. The next startups I worked for were much better, and I never felt exploited.

Sorry if founders already raised a huge valuation, why didn't they hire more devs?

I'm sure what can be done with 996 style slave labor with 3 devs can be done with 6 devs working 9 to 5. It's not like they couldn't afford the salaries (and you mentioned they weren't paying that much anyways).

because they are cheap ass people. Pivoted 3 times since 2021 to the latest hype, currently building another generic AI app. They still have 5-6 years of runway left with current burn-rate.

If they go all out in 12 months, they would actually be considered a winner/failure. Purgatory is comfortable.