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Then it looks like it is figured out because BEV is replacing combustion at an ever increasing rate.

Lack of land where you’re permitted to build solar is actually a real problem.

Nuclear bros will tell us political obstacles can be dismissed with a wave of the hand. So let's apply that procedure.

Poor people are hit hardest by the effects of climate change.

Empathy isn’t universal.

I care less about poor people in poor countries in far away lands, and far away times, than I do my fellow citizens in my relatively wealthy country.

And my fellow citizens, especially the low income folk, are affected everyday by high energy costs. High energy costs result in higher costs of everything.

Whereas the effects of climate change, to the extent that they’re distinguishable from extreme weather events at all, are largely tolerated by even the poorest here in Australia.

High energy costs makes extreme weather events less tolerable.


It is good then that renewable energy is cheap. There are a million things countries can do to help poor people. Burning fossil fuels is very far down the list.

> that renewable energy is cheap

Where is this the case?

There is what? Approximately nowhere with high renewables penetration and cheap retail energy prices.

Australia has so much coal and gas we could have electricity plans similar to data plans: all you can reasonably consume for $80 a month, and it would still make approximately zero difference to global anthropogenic carbon emissions.

We’re plenty happy for everyone else to burn our LNG and coal. Our LNG is cheap the Japanese even resell it a profit.[1]

Instead, we have high renewables penetration and electricity prices that have increased at a rate three times higher than general inflation.

1. https://ieefa.org/resources/how-japan-cashes-resales-austral...


You’re replying in a thread about energy prices dropping because of renewable energy.

Do you accept that wholesale electricity prices in Australia can be wildly disconnected from residential retail prices?

Do you accept I am an Australian resident retail customer telling you I am not seeing any change in my $/kWh price, nor any offers from my any providers offering lower prices and higher solar input price than the plan I’m on now.

It doesn’t matter if wholesale prices are zero unless energy retailers are willing to compete to drive prices lower.

And they’re not. It’s a regulated market here in Australia.


If somebody comes up with a way to produce wheat cheaply, do you blame them for high bread prices?

Energy retailers in Australia are literally just a billing interface and a poor excuse for a call centre.

They’re not really adding value in the same way a farm & associated agribusiness > harvest > global storage and distribution > mill > commercial scale bakery > distribution > retail outlet does.

This reminds me of an amusing comment I read or heard the other day: eggs are now more expensive than chickens. Somethings not right there. And it’s mostly higher costs of energy, and extremely stupid egg production regulations.


I fail to see how the blame is on renewable energy and how burning more fossil fuels would help in that situation.

The cost of coal and gas to the Australian market could effectively be covered by royalties collected from exporters of same.

Australia could be a manufacturing powerhouse off the back of very steeply subsidised energy. China does it.

But instead we seem to be bent on whatever the fuck this is supped to be?

Energy so expensive ya can’t use it.


> The cost of coal and gas to the Australian market could effectively be covered by royalties collected from exporters of same.

Or you could do the same with Solar and have more money left over. Having a subsidy rarely works out well, but subsidizing an inefficient system is making two different mistakes.


The more power you consume the closer to wholesale is your price. I’m sure Aluminium smelters or fertilizer plants care a lot about wholesale prices.

No residential retail customer in my country qualifies for any high-usage discount, as far as I’m aware.

Only big industrial users do, and even the largest industrial users I’ve worked for, or adjacent to, in my state don’t come close to amount of electricity used by the aluminium smelter.


Except for solar panels. If the corn is subsidized, then the land is not economically productive right now.

Realistically, can we expect anyone to want to build out solar without subsidies?

Yes, because solar is now the most cost-effective form of energy generation. That’s why grid-scale solar is being deployed on a massive scale world wide.

Globally solar is going gangbusters. At that scale it can't be subsidies.

Lots of people do today. Solar is profitable without subsidies.

Yep. Traditionalists hate renewables and facts. Here in Texas, there's been an absolute boom in solar post snowpocalypse. I'd gladly vote for shifting corn and soy subsidies to renewables, especially as grants for 1-300 MW solar/wind facilities for municipal co-operatives. And for solid state and sodium municipal and infrastructure energy backup and v2g.

And, I think we should heavily tax data centers federally because they're electricity, water, and land extractive and sound pollution vampires hostile to communities they invade (often to the chagrin of locals because of NDA backroom deals with corrupt politicians).. they're tantamount to giant petrochem facilities in "sacrifice zones". The rich people can cry about leaving, as did FDR's friends did, but it's always an empty threat.


I'm not convinced the data center numbers, especially water, are meaningful compared to absurdly wasteful agriculture like the corn for ethanol mentioned here, almonds in California, and cattle.

Let alone the likes of Nestlé's water stealing and golf courses in hot, dry climates.

Happy to be proven wrong by someone who has the numbers. For now like what this comment section is about with "the space needed for solar is nothing compared to what we're already doing", it seems like the water needed for data centers is nothing compared to how much we're already throwing away.


I did a napkin calculation once for building wind turbines next to a city with a construction and a maintenance tax. A big initial bill (lone) and a sizable ration per citizen. In stead of a power bill you pay installments. When you sell the house the next owner will also have to pay for it.

Thinking about it now, i have one more stupid idea, people have no faith in government, perhaps it is possible to contract a private insurance company. They can get paid to keep an eye on our bureaucrats. Make it a contract with teeth.


Except transporting it over the grid usually doesn't make sense, and is neither easy nor simple nor cheap. So solar only really makes sense if you have a use for it nearby or even onsite. So for companies/factories/datacenters/... absolutely. To keep cities powered? Less so.

It's simpler and cheaper than any alternative.

You just need ultra high voltage transition lines and a grid that can real-time redistribute load + generation.

Ultra high voltage towers are all over Texas. If they can make them work there (with the extreme heat, tornados and absurdly long distances involved in that state), they can work most places.


Companies want to shut down coal plants despite subsidies but are being forced to keep them running. The government forcing private businesses to keep running in a certain way, doesn't get more state-directed than that, straight out of communism.

It's really China with none of the upsides and all of the downsides.


Only if you like free electricity...

It’s probably a bit late for that. BEV will have taken the market four new cars before such a campaign could take root.

We can charge those batteries while we drive, with generators powered by Freedom Fuel.

We should be using leaded solder though! Campaign away ...

Having prompts be information deficient is the whole point of LLMs. The only complete description of a typical programming problem is the final code or an equivalent formal specification.

Exactly the point. But, LLM's miss that human intuition part.

You might be interested in Joey Hess' setup: https://joeyh.name/blog/solar/

Germany uses less land for energy crops and is further north, but still could satisfy most of its electricity needs if it replaced the plants with solar panels.

A tanker full of LNG and a turbine would probably work.

Kinda like the ones they are already burning in Starship to put these in space in the first place.

Anywhere on earth is better than space for this application.


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